Tom Dougherty

(Disclaimer: To the best of our knowledge, the information provided in this oral history interview is accurate. We do not make any representation or warranty as to the accuracy or completeness of the information.)

Oral Interview with Tom Dougherty
Conducted by Dan Hartman, Veterans’ Memorial Hall Program, St. Louis County Historical Society
Recording Date: Unknown
Recording Place: 600 E. 2nd St., Duluth, Minnesota (Tom Dougherty’s home)
Transcriber: Susan Schwanekamp, St. Louis County Historical Society
Transcription process funded by a grant from the Lloyd K. Johnson Foundation

DH: So today we’re doing an interview with Mr. Tom Dougherty, who was a WWII veteran – correct?

TD: Yes, sir.
DH: And what year were you born, Tom?
TD: What?

DH: What year were you born?
TD: I was born in 1916.
DH: And Tom, what’s your middle name?

TD: Angelo. I’m half Italian. My mother was Italian. My father was Irish. Typical Ranger. It was a mixture of the bloods which made things great up on the Range.

DH: How do you spell your last name?

TD: D-O-U-G-H-E-R-T-Y.
DH: OK. And was that name, was it the same when it came over, or did they change it a little bit, at all?

TD: Not to my knowledge. Not to my knowledge.
DH: OK.
TD: My father was born in Litchfield, Minnesota.
DH: And was he the Irish, or was he the Italian? (!!! And he just told him a few lines up, who was who!)
TD: He was Irish. My mother was Italian.
DH: And was the Angelo, was that your mother’s maiden name?
TD: No, Angelo was named after her brother.
DH: And what was your mom’s maiden name?

TD: Josephine Bretto. B-R-E-T-T-O.
DH: And what was your father’s, his first name?

TD: Thomas.
DH: So were you named after your father, then, I imagine?

TD: He was Thomas Raymond Dougherty. I’m Thomas Angelo Dougherty.
DH: And was your father’s father’s name Thomas, as well?
TD: No. I believe his name was Daniel.
DH: OK. And so where was your, before your….did your father grow up in Litchfield?

TD: He was born in Litchfield! He was born in Litchfield, Minnesota. I would say when he reached 19 or 20 or 21 he moved to the Twin Cities.
DH: OK. What did he do down in the Twin Cities?

TD: He…now, let me think. He learned bookkeeping and things. And that’s, as a young man, then, there was a job opened up at Hibbing, at a livery barn. They needed a bookkeeper.
DH: This was when he was 21?

TD: That’s when he was 21 or 22. I don’t remember. And he went up there as a bookkeeper, but his secondary job was to help ….this man also owned a livery barn and he had an ambulance, a so-called ambulance, and my father’s second job was to help him. Supposed to help him with the horses and the ambulances. And also this man was a….he had the hearses and things, so he was the, the buried the people up on the Range. In Hibbing and that area.

DH: What was his name?

TD: Thomas Raymond Dougherty, my father.
DH: No, the guy he worked for.
TD: Mr. Barrett. Barrett Livery Business.
DH: And what, how old was your father when you were born?

TD: I don’t know. I really don’t know.
DH: Was he in his 20s or in his 30s or….?

TD: Well, he’d have to be in his 20s. Well, maybe he could have been in his 30s. Probably in his 30s when I was born. I don’t remember his early history in Hibbing and the Range, see.
DH: That’s completely all right. How many brothers and sisters did you have?

TD: I had three brothers and four sisters.
DH: Pretty good sized family, then.
TD: Yes. Yes.
DH: And what were your brothers’ names?

TD: My brother’s name was …oh, God… my brother Jan, my brother Joe, my brother Pat.
DH: OK. And you know what’s going to follow after this. And who were your sisters?
TD: My sisters’ names were Mary, Barbara, Rose Ann and Kathryn.
DH: OK. And when did your dad meet your mom? Did they meet in the Twin Cities or down in Litchfield?

TD: No, he met her in Hibbing. Her brother-in-law had a restaurant and she helped out at this restaurant in Hibbing, North Hibbing. In those days there was just one Hibbing.
DH: OK.
TD: And she helped her sister and her brother-in-law at lunch. And my father would come into this Delmonico’s Lunch and that’s where he met my mother. She was helping her sister and her brother-in-law run the restaurant, and naturally, he had to eat someplace, and so Delmonico’s Lunch was the best restaurant in Hibbing!
DH: Delmonico’s?

TD: Delmonico’s. Named after a very famous restaurant in New York City. Yeah.
DH: And so, moving into your life a little bit.
TD: What did you say?

DH: We’re moving into your childhood. Do you remember being pretty young down in Hibbing?
TD: Well, I know it was tough. But I got a paper route early on and early morning, I delivered papers at 5:00 in the morning. I remember this was Depression. But I would make the alleys on Main Street on Sunday morning to pick up the M Street (?). Remember, it was dry, but I would find pints and half-pints and the bootleggers paid me $.25 for an empty half-pint and $.15 for an empty pint. Because they could fit in your back pocket. And the bootleggers had a way of…customers wanted it so much…so it became very lucrative for me and it would break my heart when I found a half-pint with the neck broken, because there was $.25 that was lost.
DH: So, did I get this right, that you helped the bootleggers?
TD: Oh, absolutely. There was some extra money to make, you know.
DH: Was it pretty common – the bootlegging back then?

JD: Was there bootleggers? Oh yes. Yes! Bootlegging was a big, big business up there. Big business. I would see these big trucks, canvas colored trucks come up. And they would be loaded with sugar and empty gallon cans to put the moonshine in, to be shipped back to Chicago. Oh, that was big business.
DH: Was there any fun stories around the bootlegging…anything that was kind of peculiar?

JD: Well, I remember that I would go over to Antonovich’s, because she had two boys, Bobby and Johnny. She was a bootlegger. And she would buy my empty pints and half-pints. And it was very unique, the way she… the revenuers would come in and search her house, but they could never find out where she had her booze, see? It was very unique. She buried a 55 gallon drum outside of her basement. Buried it outside of her basement and then she’d run a copper tubing from the top of the barrel into the concrete and then up by the joists, see? And so, when she would buy these, when she would buy this booze, she would pump it through the rubber hose, pump it in and fill it up. And then when she wanted you to come in to buy a pint or a half-pint, I can see her today. She would get into a little chair and she would feed this rubber hose through the joist and it would go down through the dirt and out to the barrel and then she would get down on the concrete floor and she would ____and fill up the back part of the pint, and then she would pull the rubber. Now if I was a revenuer, how was I ever going to find out where her booze was?! And they searched her house up and down, many times. But they could never find where Mrs. Antonovich had her booze.
DH: That’s a great story.
JD: I knew where it was but…
DH: Yeah. And the police, did they ever talk to you, to try to find out where it was?
JD: Well, naturally, we didn’t know anything about it! What would they think, that some grade school kids knew about the booze? They thought we were dumb.
DH: And how many people did you help out, like her? Was she the only one, or…?

JD: Mrs. Antonovich was the only one that I helped. Yeah.
DH: Was she a pretty nice lady, too, or…?

JD: Yes. On Saturday, she always had raised doughnuts for us, that they got downtown. And that was with Dooshey and Bobby – I just said Tommy, but it was Dooshey and Bobby. Dooshey is a Serbian name. They chummed around with us. They were in our gang. We would never….we were normally not around when the revenuers would be searching. But if we were, we would be up eating those sugar doughnuts and milk. We were dumb.
DH: Great story. So did a lot of people get busted by the cops?
JD: What?
DH: Did a lot of people get busted by the police, for the…?

JD: Well, the revenuers. The police didn’t have anything to do with it. It was the government that was after them, see. It wasn’t the local police. The local police knew all about that, but they got paid off, too. They’re not going to let a cash crop go.
DH: Yeah, makes sense. And you indirectly brought this up, growing up in Hibbing there are lot of people of different ethnic backgrounds. And how did you guys get along? Did you get along pretty good, or how did that go?

JD: We got along famously. We got along famously. Because the whole Range was made up of immigrants. You gotta remember that. They came in to work. So we had every nationality. When I was seven years old I could swear in seven different languages. That was the first thing you learned! But we were never bothered by the revenuers.
DH: And so, as a kid, what were some of the games you played? Did you play hockey, or baseball, or…?
JD: Hockey. Hockey was the game. In fact, my cousin Joe Bretto was the first American born hockey player ever to be under contract with one of the six original national hockey league teams. They had never in their lives….remember, those hockey players all come from Canada. They were all French Canadians. When Joe, who was 6’2”, weighed 190 lbs….in fact, his nickname was “the brute”. And he was under…finally, Boston bought him. And when he hit the big leagues, they couldn’t believe…here’s this hockey player, over 200 lbs. They were used to seeing 140 pounders. Here comes “the brute”, see. He made a name for himself. Made a big name for the whole Iron Range. And so after Joe, many Range hockey players played for original NHL teams.
DH: Wow. If we were to go to the USA Hockey Hall of Fame in Eveleth, is he in there?

JD: Oh, you would see Joe’s name there. Definitely. Definitely.
DH: And so, what were some of the things you did in the summertime, for fun?

JD: We caddied.
DH: Like golf caddying?

JD: Golf course caddying.
DH: What golf course was that at?

JD: Mesaba Country Club.
DH: And did that pay pretty well?

JD: That was the only paying job besides pedaling papers. You know, it was a place to make it.
DH: It sounds like you guys worked a lot.
JD: When I was a little boy, I’ll tell you. You didn’t just get in there. Like I had cousins that were older than me. You got initiated. If they didn’t want a guy, they beat him up pretty good. He’d never come back. That was a job, you know, caddying in the summer time. But you had to have a so-called protector, and my cousins were bigger and they were good golfers. On the Irish side.
DH: And how was the food growing up, with your mom being Italian?

JD: The food was as good as the finest restaurants. Italians, when they cook, they know how to cook.
DH: Was there a certain meal that you remember that was pretty good?

JD: Spaghetti and ravioli, polenta – corn meal mush.
DH: And what was so much better about those meals, compared with what they are today?

JD: Well, they’re better than meat and potatoes. The only thing the Irish knew how to cook was potato – very little meat. But you really got the taste, you know, with the Italian food. The ravioli, the spaghetti, the sauce.
DH: What was your favorite part about growing up in the Range, as a kid?

JD: Being a Ranger. Being a part of the Iron Range.
DH: So you’re very proud of your Ranger background.
JD: Damn right. You bet. In fact, any Ranger, these fellows from Florida, they come up fishing up here, and they can’t understand …”Where you from? The Range. I’m a Ranger.” And that was very, very important. To be a Ranger. Because they stuck together like glue, the Range. And that’s the whole Iron Range. You know, which extends about 40 miles. From Grand Rapids to Gilbert.
DH: So how do you explain the loyalty of the Range? Why there is such a tight bond.
JD: I would say – it was new. We were a new group. The whole Range. Like my age – they were born there. Of immigrant parents. You gotta remember that. Like my mother was not an immigrant – she was born in the United States. But her parents come over from the old country, see. My father’s father and mother come from Ireland.
DH: So, I skipped over this by accident earlier. Your parents – what was their religious background?

JD: Catholic. They were both Catholics.
DH: I would kind of assume if you’re Irish – Catholic background. And where did you go to church at?

JD: The Blessed Sacrament Church in Hibbing. But I served Mass at the Immaculate Conception Church, which was the Italian church. Because the pastor of the Italian church, __________grandfather, first name is _____(sounds like alpha mines)___and he spoke Italian and I would go there because I would sometime pick up the collection.

DH: By high school, how many languages could you speak?

JD: How many languages?

DH: Yep.
JD: English.
DH: OK.
JD: No, I spoke the Range language! No, I never learned…I wish…you remember, my mother was Italian. My father was Irish. My mother, naturally, when she would talk to her brothers and her mother and father, she spoke to them in Italian.
DH: Did you know a lot of Italian?

JD: No, I did not know. I knew special words.
DH: Was there anything about growing up during the 1920s or during the Prohibition that you remember – a great story that you want to have for the historic record?

JD: rowing up in the Depression. That was an education of itself. People did not know. You know, how the Depression affected. That’s why practically every foreigner would have a garden in his back yard. Because they grew their….
DH: Yeah. And I’ve got to ask this question. I’ve interviewed enough people at this point……A lot of people I’ve interviewed on the Range and here in Duluth – they couldn’t – they said that growing up in the 1920s, they were pretty poor then, too, as they were in the 1930s.
JD: It was. It was. It was poor, poor, poor. You remember, they were immigrants. They come here with nothing.
DH: And so, when you were a kid, your whole young life, I imagine, were your parents gardening most of your life in their back yard?

JD: Well, just as soon as I was able to, I got a paper route. I delivered the Duluth News Tribune 5:00 in the morning. So I had an income. Picking up the empty pints and half-pints that I would deliver to the bootleggers.
DH: Did your mom have a garden, though?

JD: No, we did not have a garden. But many did. Our next door neighbors did and they had their…It’s like I can say to, my uncle Angelo with Aunt Tina, they were my uncles and aunts, but they had a little garden, see? Remember my father was Irish, my mother was Italian.
DH: So, tell me a little bit more about the Great Depression. What was different about the Great Depression compared to today. How tough was it?

JD: Well, what it did was you learned the value of a dollar, in the Depression. That’s the first thing you learned. The value of a dollar.
DH: And can you explain that a little bit more? How did you learn that? Why was it……
JD: If you wanted to go the movie, you better have some money! If you didn’t have any money, you couldn’t go to the movie, and we used to get into the movies for $.05. At the Victory Theater. And that was on Saturday.
DH: And so now I would imagine we’ll be getting more into your teenage years.
JD: Well, as we became teenagers, things got better. In fact, I got this paper route and I saved $95 and I bought a Model T Ford. And I began to deliver groceries on Fridays and Saturdays at the Piggly Wiggly store. So everything was to make a dollar. You had to give something to get it, see.
DH: And do you remember the CCC camps at all?

JD: Very well. We had a number of CCC camps right up in our area.
DH: Do you remember where they were?

JD: I sure do. In fact, we eventually, my father bought some property between two lakes, Side Lake and Sturgeon Lake. And there was a CCC camp right up there. And that was only 18 miles north of Hibbing. There was a big CCC camp there.
DH: And did you think the CCC camps were a good thing? Was it a good thing to do?

JD: Yes. It was a marvelous thing to do. Because it put those young guys to work. Remember, I had a paper route. And my father was better off than a lot of people. You know, see – what he did. But these kids didn’t have a job, so they went into the CCC camp. Got ‘em off the street. That was a marvelous thing.
DH: And what did you think of the President, FDR, at the time? Was he doing the right thing? What were your thoughts as kid, growing up?

JD: He was well thought of, FDR. Well thought of. The Republicans weren’t too _(thought?)______of, up on the Range. The Democrats were predominant. That’s the workers. The mining companies were Republicans. The workers were Democrats. Farmer Labor.
DH: And so the Democrats were a pretty big deal up on the Range, then.
JD: Yep. Democratic Farmer Labor, they called it.
DH: Going to the….tell me a little bit about your teenage years. What did you guys do for fun? Did you go to a lot of movies? Did you….?
JD: Well, if you had the money. If you had the money. But …we had, like with the Hibbing Recreational Association, in the summertime, they got baseball games and they tried to get the kids to start doing something. They had something to do. Because if you’ve got nothing to do, you get into trouble.
DH: And type of…do you remember any of the movies that you went to see? That you liked, or didn’t?

JD: Tom Mix. He was the cowboy.
DH: So you watched a lot of cowboy….
JD: Sure. The cowboy shoes. Yeah. Hoot Gibson. That was another one. Tom Mix. He was in town mixing some in. (??)

DH: So, I’m going to start moving ahead a little bit here. Do you remember in 1939 when WWII got started, before we really got involved, do you remember that happening in the press at all?

JD: Yes. You became cognizant, you know…..Then they started the draft. Let’s see, that was before, that was a couple of years before the war. When you were 18 years old, you were subject to the draft. And you went into – it was like a boot camp. You see? So, in fact, I was ready, I could have been sent to boot camp, but instead, the Navy offered to…I had to do something. I either had to go into the draft, get drafted, or I could go into the Army, Navy or the Marine Corps. And so I thought, hell, I’m going to join the Army. I never joined the Navy. So what happened was I had to down to Ft. Snelling from Hibbing. And this particular day that I had to drive down it had snowed the night before. And Minnesota was just white with snow. When I drove down – 5 hours - no one thought about wearing dark glasses, so I went to have my eyes checked, and the doctor said “What are those letters up there?” and I said “What letters?” I couldn’t even read ‘em, see. So he put a big cross across my application, and he said “You better get glasses when you get home.” So when I got home, naturally I went to an optometrist, and he checked my eyes, and he says “Tom, there’s nothing wrong with your eyes.” And I said “How the hell I flunked, then?” If he hadn’t said what he did, I would never have got in. He said “What kind of a day was it?” And I told him. And he said “You were snow blind.” So I took all of my Army stuff and I took it to the Navy. So that snow fall was the difference between being an Army private or a Navy private. So that’s how I got into the Navy.
DH: So what year was this, by the way?

JD: That was in 1941. In was in Class 10A. That was in October, before the 15th. 10 was the 10th month. SO my Pensacola number was……I was in Class 10A41PC. That meant October, before the 15th, Navy Private. So when I went and took my Navy tests, I made damn sure that I had dark glasses when I drove down, and bingo, I was in the Navy, see.
DH: So you signed up before Pearl Harbor, then.
JD: Before Pearl Harbor, yeah. I was sent to…I was sent first to…in fact, every cadet at those times, if you were Army, you went to two little towns in Texas. If you were Navy, you were first sent to Corpus Christmas Naval Air Station. Then you either stayed at Corpus or you were sent to Pensacola or to Jacksonville. Well I was sent to, I was first sent to Corpus Christi and there was a thousand of us there. Some were kept. I was sent to Pensacola. And so that’s where I was in Class 10A41PC. Tyrone Powers was in my squadron. Yeah.
DH: And we’re getting close to December 7th at this point.
JD: I was doing my navigation homework on this Sunday and I was listening to the radio and it said, “We’re going to interrupt…” – this was December 7th – “We’re going to interrupt the program.” And that’s when they announced it, see. Very interesting, the night that happened. I had the fire watch as principal (??). This was after I was sent from Corpus Christi to Pensacola, see. The fire watch consisted that we reported to the battalion office at 8:00 and we a drew gun belt and a flashlight. And our job was to go through the three barracks. You know, they were all wood. And everybody smoked, you know, so and afraid of fire. Went into the bag, and this Sunday there was a 45 Colt automatic attached to the gun belt, so I put it on. Now remember, being from northern Minnesota, you grow up with guns, you know. Thank God I had the Colt Woodsman automatic, a 22. And so I checked and there was no clip in it. I said to the battalion officer “Sir, there’s no clip.” He said “We can’t give you one.” I said “What did you say?” He said “We’ can’t give you one.” Well, I said “Why?” He said “You’re liable to get hurt.” I said “If I run into a Jap (am I going to) club him to death with this gun?” This was the beginning. “You little son of a bitch! Get your ass out of here!” So, I still got that 45. I can tell you about that later. Oh, excuse me, I didn’t get that gun, but it was……(barking)…….after I got aboard ship this was ________(indecipherable word)_____. I finished Pensacola. Now from Pensacola you either go Fires or you go P Boats or you go Scout Observation. Scout Observation was like being suicide. Because that’s when you’re aboard a battle ship or a cruiser. It’s the most horse shit duty you can get, to be honest with you. And needless to say, they would teleport you off the starboard side, throw your sea bag over the port, just to _______the ship that you weren’t coming back. You were vulnerable, see. So after I finished my tour at Pensacola I was right assigned to the USS Massachusetts. And that was a brand new battle ship. And frankly, if you are aboard the ship, you’re known as a plank owner. As you went into the Navy. And I’m a plank owner from the USS Massachusetts. I was a boarder when I was commissioned, see. It was a brand new battleship. Right from Pensacola. Right to the battleship Massachusetts. And that’s where I started my Navy career flying.
DH: What did you think of the ship? Did you like it?

JD: No, the ship was up at Portland, Maine. Actually, it was at Boston, at the shipyard. And I was sent from Pensacola – I had leave and I was sent to Boston Navy Yard. And I went aboard her and it was known as a shakedown cruise. And remember it was ’41. This was ’42 now. That’s in ’43, when I went aboard. (???) And the ship was brand new, and it was on a shakedown cruise. And this was a brand new ship. Everything was brand new, see. So we sailed between Portland, Maine and Boston. And the reason that we were there….now remember there was lots of merchant ships that were supplying England. And we were afraid the German battleships would come up and sink those ships. See? And so we were aboard – we were stationed, you might say, going from Portland, Maine and Boston, on what were known as shakedown cruises. But we were there in case those pocket (?) battle ships _____from Norway, they were up in the Norwegian ports, and come down and raise hell with the merchants….with our shipping, see.
DH: And you didn’t say this officially, but I imagine you became a scout observation pilot?
JD: It’s, you know, you didn’t have a choice. I was known as an OS pilot. Scout Observation. And like I told you, it was horse shit duty.
DH: OK. So why was it so bad?
JD: Well, I mean at first, here you are, you’ve got 1100 men aboard ship and there’s three pilots and they’re pissed off at us, because we get extra pay, and we can detach from the ship when we come into shore. When the ship would come into the ship yard, we would detach and go to the air station. And we got liberty every night. So if you were aboard ship you got 1 in 3. You got liberty every third day. Every third night, see. And so it was, the rest of the crew were very jealous of the three pilots. And not only that, we could leave the ship when we got to shore. We didn’t have to stay aboard. We got extra pay, and ……
So the crew was hard to get along with then, I would imagine.
JD: Well they were actually……remember, our radio men, they got extra pay, too. See?
And the mechanics, they got extra pay. Cause we gave them flight time, if they rode with us. All they had to get was three hours a month to get their flight pay, see? And so our radiomen and our machinists, they were very happy to be connected with the flight, because they got extra pay, see. And they got to wear the nice jackets, too. (What flight?!) The Irish _____________go and show my leather jacket with the fur collar.
DH: And so how long did you stay, doing some of those shakedowns?

JD: Well then I’ll tell you. After our shakedown cruise, we were up Portland, Maine, we were up at Casco Bay, and we took off for about 11:00 at night. We didn’t know where the hell we were going. The next morning we woke up …… Now there’s a Navy flight jacket right there…..
DH: That’s actually going to go on camera….
JD: I shouldn’t really own this, see. (Laughter) This was lost at sea!
DH: And did you like this jacket?

JD: Huh?

DH: Why did you like this jacket? Why did you want to keep it so much?
JD: Oh, Christ, this is a ____________still having the wig, see?
In fact, Pensacola, this coming spring, is going to have the 100th anniversary of the air station, and I’ve already been asked to fly down with this band for it.
DH: OK.
JD: So like I say, you never knew, when you were at Pensacola, you never knew where you were going to go, see.
DH: Yeah.
JD: And so I got my orders to report to the USS Massachusetts. And that was up at Boston Navy Yard, see. And that was, you know, I was OS Pilot, brand new. Frankly, it’s horse shit duty. Anyway, to make a long story short, when we were on our shakedown cruises, frankly, we were shadowing these pocket battle ships that could break loose and raise hell with all of our ships that were going to England, see. And so naturally I went aboard and between Boston and Portland, Maine…and this one night…I was asleep, we took off, woke up the next morning and we were in the middle of ….imagine, 700 ships in a convoy.
DH: So you didn’t know this was coming?

JD: Huh? No, we didn’t know. And all of a sudden here we are in the middle of this convoy, see. We’re heading for Casablanca. We didn’t know where the hell we were going. We knew we were…..you know.
DH: So as a pilot on the ship you had no idea…..
JD: No, it was just three pilots, three planes, see. And we were in the middle of this convoy. And naturally, we had destroyers that were running around looking for subs. We would be catapulted. We had depth charges and we were looking for subs. And we didn’t know where the hell we were going. Well anyhow, to make a long story short, we were called to up to the captain’s mast and we got up here and here was this general. This was the first time I ever heard the name “Patton”. George Patton. Admiral Giffin was up there. And at that point we were told that we were heading for Casablanca. We were heading for Morocco, with this big convoy. We had…didn’t actually GIs, you know, naturally, GIs. You can’t imagine how big this flotilla was, of 700 ships. So anyhow, we were called to, that’s how we were called to this meeting. And we were told what we were going to do. There was this French battleship that was in the harbor and every time I looked down at the Aerial Bridge in the canal, there, and take away the bridge, and it’s an exact replica of Casablanca. It’s got a canal just like what’s out there and you know where the grain elevators are? That’s where the big Jean Bart French battleship was anchored, and out in front of us, naturally, was shoreline. And naturally, we were called to this meeting then, aboard ship and we were told where we were going. And we prepared for that, see. And on the way over, we had one hell of a storm and you can see – if you go over and look at those pictures – go over and look at ‘em and you’ll see what I was talking about. We lost an airplane. See this airplane here. We had three planes and this one was sitting on the other one. A big wave come over and knocked it loose. So we had to throw it overboard.
(Hartman goes over to see pictures.)
DH: Wow, pretty big storm!

JD: Oh, it was a hell of a storm. So, we were called up to the captain’s, up to his quarters. And there was this general up there and that was the first time that I ever heard the name Patton. And that’s where we were told that we were going into Casablanca. (Transcriber is aware of the repetitions here.) In Morocco. And there was this French battleship, the Jean Bart, that 15” guns, 50 calibers, but it didn’t have any engines in it. But it could raise hell with all of our landing craft that was being landed at Fadava (?). Like say you’re going up to Two Harbors. Not that far. Not that far. Fadava was a little……on the outskirts of Casablanca. And this French battleship was in the harbor and so this French battleship could raise hell with all of our landing craft. So that was our primary target, if ____a fighter. We did not know that. But we had a fifth column in there. See you had the Vichy French and the De Gaulle French. The Vichy French were in cahoots with the Germans. The De Gaulle French was not. But we did not know who was in control of Casablanca – the VC or the ……..Anyhow, if had been the De Gaulle French, there would have been a white flag flying on the end of the……And that was a thing that we were not going to get opposition. But if there was no flag, then we didn’t know, see. So, when we were catapulted that morning, we were told to go in, observe. If there’s a white flag, immediately call us. If there’s no flag and you encounter enemy action, you will call better up. (??) Now you remember we had lost an airplane going up, so the senior navigator was catapulted first and it takes maybe another 20 minutes to get ready to shoot the other one up, so he was gone, and we were catapulted just as the sun was coming up off the Sahara. And when I reached the shore, when I pulled into the shore, I was about 10 miles, less than that, from, you know, you might say downtown Casablanca. If there was a white flag, it meant that we were not going to be ____. Well, anyhow, I don’t know where the hell the _____. I find out that he ended up south of town. And I often wondered how come he ……..I think he was from Annapolis. See, we didn’t think much of the Annapolis guys. You follow me?

DH: Yeah, a little bit.
JD: I mean, he should have……I mean, if I found the shore, you know I pulled right smack up to… I was only up to maybe Knife River (in his analogy, presumably). I knew exactly where I was, so I flew south until I got right over the “Aerial Bridge”, you might say, see. And everything was quiet and peaceful and I could see the smoke rising from the houses. I was at a thousand feet and all of a sudden this fighter plane got on me. He arrived from nowhere. Now I had a problem. I had already given him, the minute this fighter plane got on me, I gave him a “batter up”. And that meant…
DH: We’re at war.
JD: We’re at it, see. That’s where I started WWII. Now think about it. There wasn’t a shell fired until that fighter plane got on me, because we were supplying England and them. We weren’t sinking…..the only ships that were being sunk were sunk by the submarines. But this was the first time that we actually, you know…….That’s where I say I started WWII. Now think about it.

DH: You gave the call to action.
JD: I gave the “batter up”. And that’s when the French battleship – that was our primary target. This is interesting. It had no engines in it but remember, it could reach all of our ships that were landing. So naturally, that become our primary target, see. The battleship Massachusetts fired 700 rounds of 16” ammunition. They were duds. How we put the Jean Bart out of action – one of those shells – well, it weighed over 2000 lbs. and it was as tall as me – tripped a turret and knocked it off its roller pass. And that’s how we put it…….but can you imagine – our 16” shells were all duds, because when they hit, they’re supposed to explode. In fact, when I got back to the ship, the gunnery officer said “Did you see anything strange there?” I said “Yes sir. You should have sent a shore party to pick up your 16” shells that the whole city was bombarded with.” He said “You’re sworn to secrecy.” That never come out in the papers or anything. Oh, I never saw the papers.
DH: What was the purpose of that? What was the purpose of just shooting the shells?

JD: Well, they were shooting at us and there were fighter planes shooting, see? But we had two carriers with us, the Ranger was there, because three of their pilots got shot. Well, to make a long story short, there was four of us pilots that got shot down there at Casablanca. See? And we were taken prisoner.
DH: And were you one of those four?
JD: Yeah, I was one of the four. The other three were pilots off of the Ranger.
DH: OK.
JD: And so, they were incarcerated, we were all first incarcerated, and like it was a shore patrol. Headquarters, with a couple little cells in it, see? But then there were those three pilots off of the Ranger – they got shot down. I don’t know if they got shot down from anti-aircraft guns, or from lanes. I don’t know. Because I was already, I was the first one to be shot down.
DH: And when you were shot down, did you…
JD: I landed my plane on the water. Right at the shore. Because I was right at the shore – right over there, see.
DH: OK.
JD: And so I landed….
DH: Where were you shot in the plane at?
JD: I don’t know. But my engine quit. And all I know is that the back of my seat had armor plate. And after a couple of days I got back to my plane I saw the pock marks on the back of my seat. There were 13 ____marks, that would have gone into my back if I hadn’t had those armor plates. My radio man got hit. He’s still living in Sun City. They took him to a hospital and there was a World War II Corps man that was in this hospital. Remember, you had the Vichy French and the De Gaulle French. It was all Vichy French there. But this Corps man was true blue and took care of Bobby like he was his own, see. So anyhow, to make a long story short, we ended up in the bottom of a soccer stadium. There was more room there. And there was about 20 GIs that were under there, along with these other three pilots. These GIs that were there were too far south when they hit the shore. You know, from the big convoy. That night they were captured. So, all of a sudden, our captors disappeared. Remember, we were in the bottom of a soccer stadium now. We walked out onto the street and we see the half cracks (?) and tanks and things coming into town and you see this Lieutenant Colonel come wheeling up and remember now, there’s these three pilots off of the Ranger and myself. He pulls up and says “Where the hell did you guys come from?” One of the guys said “We were here before you. He says “Where is communications?” I would have said “Where the hell can I go to get a shower or bath and something to eat?!” So, he said “Jump in, crawl in, and I’ll get you up there.” I don’t know if you ever remember, Roosevelt, Churchill and Stalin all met at Casablanca. Do you remember that?
DH: Yep.
JD: You remember they were pictured in a beautiful garden and there was this beautiful house behind ‘em. That was the Villa Mans (?) that was owned by some French multi-millionaire. Naturally, the German general took it over. That was before the Vichy got in there. But now it was under the control of the Vichy French. They took us up there. The Vichy French now were no longer there. The De Gaulle French took over. Well, the GIs got in there.
DH: So how long were you a prisoner of war?

JD: Well, let me tell you. It was only four days, to be honest with you. Just four days.
HD: How did the Vichy French treat you in those four days?

JD: They treated us horse shit.
HD: OK.
JD: Yeah. But remember now it was the De Gaulle French that was in there. And we walked up to the foyer of this beautiful home and this is where this general come out, see. White hair. And he said “Gentlemen, if it wasn’t for you, I wouldn’t be here.” _______(They were going to hit?)___the coast. So he said to a Filipino corporal: “Get some glasses, get some glasses!” We were in this gorgeous, gorgeous house, see. And so this general must have knew they had a wine cellar. So pretty soon, the wine steward arrives and he’s got his white things on and he’s got a bottle and this general said “Glasses! Glasses! Get some glasses!” He said “General…” – a G2 was going through this dining area, looking for booby traps – we don’t dare touch that yet. He said “We’ve got to drink out of something. Don’t you guys have some tin cups or something?!” Now, this is General Patton. General. So, we drank the toast, now remember – General Patton, General Jones, General…you don’t remember any goddamn names, you know. And anyhow, we drank a toast and this general said “I don’t have room for you here, but right above the Village Mans, this beautiful hotel, was the Antwerp (?) Hotel. Beautiful. Overlooked the Atlantic. He said “You’ll be up there until a captain of a ship comes in and then you’ll report to him.” Oh, God, this hotel was beautiful,_____take the shower, the laundress took our underwear, you know, we stayed in our room while she went out quick and washed it for us, and these other three privates, see, the four of us there.
DH: So you went from being a POW for four days to pretty much living in luxury….
JD: Well naturally, you know. We had no way of…we hadn’t changed clothes in now four days, five days. Sweating and everything. And, um, so that…I don’t know if you remember, but Patton got on the news. He slapped a GI. Did you ever hear about that?

DH: Yep.

JD: Well, the thing of it was that when he slapped that GI, he did what a father would have done. This GI sort of went berserk. And he slapped him, to wake him up. And he was damned for that. Well, when I saw a picture of him, I said “Oh, shit! I drank champagne with that guy!” Because I didn’t remember his name, from Casablanca. I didn’t remember his name there. So I did drink champagne with the other three pilots and myself and the general and his chief of staff. The four of us. (Four??)

DH: So you drank champagne with General Patton.
JD: Yep. With General Patton. Drank champagne with him.
DH: So what did you think of General Patton? Did you think he was….?
JD: Well, I’ll tell you. He treated us like kings. We drank champagne with him, he looked out for us, you know what I mean. As far as I’m concerned, he was a gentleman. Yeah.
DH: So tell me a little bit more about the four days. That you spent with the Vichy French.
JD: It was just sitting in this.....the room wasn’t much wider than that picture, that window there. And the food was horse shit. It was….

DH: What was the food?

JD: I don’t remember what the hell it was.
DH: And you were in a soccer stadium?

JD: _____soccer stadium. Then when we were released, we ended up at the Ampa (or Antwerp or ???) Hotel. Then we began to eat decent again, see. That four days we were eating shit.
DH: Do you remember what was one of the first things you ate when you got done?

JD: Huh?

DH: Do you remember what was one of the first things you ate when you were released?

JD: I don’t remember. I don’t remember.
DH: How was a Casablanca, as a city?

JD: Well, if you go over there and look at that ship, you’ll see…….go over and look….and you’ll see something that…why do you think it’s there? Do you see that pipe? That is a man’s _______. That is the only thing I have from Casablanca. Now remember, I had $300 in cash that we were to use if we were had to bribe or something. Well naturally I “lost” that. (Laughter) And you see, our jackets had a inner lining, and that’s where I had the cash in paper, so when they searched me, they didn’t find the money. And then I’ve got to tell you, too. I got my 45 back. I went back to this…we were in this jail first, you know, and that’s where they took the gun away from me, on the shore. So I went to there, to the shore patrol, and I wanted to see the head honcho. Now this is after we’re there_______. All I said was “I want my gun.” He didn’t answer me. And then he went to his roll top desk and unrolled it. Our gunner made a nice shoulder holster for the 45, see. And he had my 45. He was going to keep that. But I got it back. I got it back. Naturally when I got back to the ship, the gun _________said “You lost your gun.” I said “Yes,sir.” He said “Good, we surveyed it.” So as far as the Navy went, it’s gone.
DH: And that’s how you have it today, then?

JD: That’s how I got my 45.
DH: Wow, that’s great. So what happened after Casablanca? How long did you stay there?
JD: Well, I stayed there until the cruiser Augusta. Then the cruiser Augusta came in and it had some wheels on it and some biggies (??). And I waited for her and well, just as soon as the ship come into port, I reported aboard. Well, they weren’t happy to see me, to be honest with you. Well, anyhow. Especially the first lieutenant. He had to find a place for me, to bunk and things, and here I didn’t have any change in clothes or…. It was….But before the ship come in, I was able to get my clothes washed, at the Ampha (?) Hotel. So when the August come, I waited for her and then she ….but my ship, my ship…the way they would do, they would send out messages. And they was like info. Info to USS Massachusetts. Well, they sent a letter, they sent this fax out that I was aboard the Augusta, but my ship never got it, so that’s why I was MIA. I was missing in action, see.
DH: So you were officially listed as MIA?

JD: Officially listed. In fact, I got back to the ship. Fr. Moody (?) said not to worry about it. He said “We buried you. Well, not actually buried, but we had your funeral services on such and such a day, aboard ship.” They thought I was dead, so he had a lengthy mass for me, aboard ship.
DH: They never sent a notice to your parents, did they?
JD: They never got the message. Or if my father did, he never said anything.

DH: OK. But your father thought you were MIA, though?

JD: No, he didn’t know. They had it that I was missing in action. But he never said that he ever got a message, or nothing.
DH: OK. So how long were you on the Augusta?
JD: Well, I stayed aboard her until I come back to the States. Then we stopped at the….What was that island, on the way back?

DH: So did the Augusta go right back to the United States or did it go through Italy, at all, or…?

JD: No, it come right from the shore. Right from the shore. Right back to the States. The ship went back to Norfolk, where it come from. Then I got… I picked up another OS at Norfolk and flew it to Boston. That’s where the ship was. At the Boston Navy Yard.
DH: And what ship was at the Boston Navy Yard - the Massachusetts, again?

JD: The Massachusetts.
DH: The Massachusetts went to North Africa and then actually went back?
JD: Then came back, yeah. It had to go in to get repaired, because it got hit a couple of times.
DH: Oh, okay.
JD: But not bad.
DH: And this is still 1943, correct?

JD: Yeah.
DH: So you got attached back to the Massachusetts
JD: Yeah.
DH: And did you guys go anywhere again, or…?
JD: And when I got back, I called them again. And this was around Christmas time. This was now the end of December. So actually, I spent Christmas in Hibbing.
DH: Oh, okay.
JD: The 25th. And I got married up there, too, at that time.
DH: So where did you meet your wife at?
JD: Oh, I knew her before I went in the service.
DH: So you guys were dating before you went in the service.
JD: Yeah. But I kept in contact with her and…we were engaged.
DH: What was her name?

JD: Jean.
DH: And her last name?

JD: Shea. S-H-E-A.
DH: And she was from Hibbing, too?

JD: From Hibbing.
DH: Same age as you?

JD: No, she was younger. She was about, I think, 9 or 10 years. I don’t remember.
DH: And how old were you when you met her?

JD: Well, I got married in, what , ’43. I was born in 1916. So. 18 and 25 is what she was saying. (Apparently this refers to another person, unidentified, in the room.) How old was I, Kate, when I got married?

(Kate responds here.) 25. She was at Stanbrook. She was at that College of St. Scholastica, which was at Stanbrook. And they tell the story. There were nuns up there that were actually in Mom’s class. The nuns would tell the story about going to see Mom. When she was at St. Scholastica, and you would go up to see Mom and you would have your dress whites on. And the girls up there used to hang out the window, waving to you.
JD: That was at the Villa.
(Kate) Yeah, up at the Villa. They all wanted to…they were all so handsome in their dress whites.
DH: So you were quite popular in your dress whites.
(Kate) And he had a car. People didn’t have cars then, like we have today. And he also had a car. He was hot!

DH: So you were a popular guy coming back into town. And you were already engaged when you came back?

JD: Yes.
DH: And so, where di d you go…
JD: Yeah, I was engaged when I got back. And I was engaged long before that.
DH: Do you remember where you proposed to Jean at?

JD: Oh, gosh….
(Kate) I don’t know if even I know that story.
JD: Well, I remember, I remember calling her. Now, this was after….But I remember calling her and I wanted to get married, and she said, “Wait, I’ll ask my mother.”

DH: Obviously, the mother said yes!

(Kate) Yes, because he dressed nicely and had a car. The important things back then.
(Laughter)
DH: So you asked her over the phone. Were you overseas, were you training when you asked her?

JD: No, I called her from Boston.
DH: How long were you dating before that?
JD: Well, I was dating her before the war. Before I went in the service.
DH: So like a year or two before you joined the service?

JD: Yeah.
DH: And, uh, where did you first meet Jean?

JD: Well, I first met her at a basketball game at Hibbing.
DH: OK. And it…..how old was she then? Was she 16, probably?

JD: Well, she was 18 when we got married. So maybe 16. I liked ‘em young.
DH: OK, so let’s get a little background on your wife, here, as well. So you guys got married at Christmas, and did you get married Hibbing?

JD: Got married in Hibbing.
DH: What church?
JD: Blessed Sacrament Church.
DH: I apologize, I can’t remember, but was that the Irish or the Italian….
JD: No, that was the ….Immaculate Conception was the Italian church. Blessed Sacrament….I went to school there, too, at Ascension Hall, which was connected to Blessed Sacrament Church.
DH: Blessed Sacrament, was that a certain type of ethnic group, too, or…?

JD: No, that was the main, the big church in Hibbing. The Italian church was a smaller church.
DH: How long did you get to stay in Hibbing, before you got sent back?

JD: Well, we went, I went back to…see, I …from Norfolk, I took a train from Boston to Chicago home. So that was…December 11, that we got married.
DH: So did you guys go on a honeymoon, anywhere, or…?

JD: No, I went back to the ship. Remember, the ship was in Boston.
DH: So right after you were married…
JD: Went right back to Boston. Left her with the other Navy wives at the Stafford Hotel. All the Navy wives stayed at the Stafford.
DH: So she came to Boston with you.
JD: She came to Boston with me. Yeah.
DH: OK and so how long did the ship stay in Boston?

JD: Well, it had to go into the shipyard, you know, to be prepared. So, it was ….I got orders to go to instrument flight instructors school, from the ship. I was detached from the ship. I was detached from the ship and got orders. That was in…that would have been in….sometime in ’43. And I was sent to Providence, Rhode Island.
DH: OK. And this was before you got married?

JD: No, this was after I got married.
DH: So this was in ’44?

JD: It was - when did we get married, Katie? We got married in December of ’43, and this had to be ’44.
(Kate) I was born in ’53. Tommy is ten years older than I am. But I was born in ’53, so he was born in…it had to be ’42. (To Tom: You had to have gotten married in ’42, because Tommy was born in ’43.) You eldest child is 10 years older than I am, and I was born in ’53.
JD: No, I don’t remember.
DH: So what did you do in Rhode Island?

JD: I went through instrument flight instructors school. I learned how to teach instrument flying. And I was sent from there to Corpus Christi, Texas.
DH: So you went back to Corpus Christi
JD: Yeah, I went back to Corpus. And that’s where, you see those pictures with all of those officers…..that’s the 110 instructors. I had 400-500 cadets going through the squad room.
DH: And how long did you do that for, at Corpus Christi?

JD: I stayed there until I got orders to…..I wanted to get into multi-engines. So I went to a PB Wide (??) school. And I ended up flying PB Wides and I was sent to San Juan, Puerto Rico. And that’s when they were flying back a bunch of GIs from Europe, from Africa. And we covered that area for air sea rescue. And then when we weren’t doing that, we were looking for mines. I ended up my Navy at San Juan, Puerto Rico.
DH: You say you ended your Navy career in Puerto Rico?

JD: Ended my Navy in Puerto Rico. Yep.
DH: And was it your five years, or….Was it the end of your five years, or why did you want to end it, at that point?

JD: My father, I was at Providence…no, wait. Where the hell was I?
DH: You were in Puerto Rico, or?

JD: We were in Puerto Rico. I was sent back to the States and I was sent to instrument flight school and then I returned to Corpus. And that’s where the instrument squadron was, in Corpus Christi.
DH: OK.
JD: And I ended the war at Corpus Christi. When the war was over.
DH: Oh. And do you remember the day when victory was…do you remember VE day? In Europe? When Hitler committed suicide, do you remember that day at all?
JD: Well, let me see. Do I remember that? What did we do? See, my memory is gone to hell.
DH: Don’t worry about it. I was just trying to bring back…….Do you remember when victory in Japan was celebrated? Do you remember VJ Day? And if you don’t, not a big deal either.
JD: Nope. I don’t remember.
DH: And so this is one of my last questions. As a pilot…did you enjoy being a pilot?

JD: Very much so. Very much so.
DH: And why? Why was being a pilot a good thing?

JD: Well, I was back on the water again, flying sea planes. You know. I stayed in the Reserves. I stayed in the Reserves in Minneapolis.
DH: The Navy Reserves?

JD: Yeah. I stayed in the Navy Reserves for…well, you know, it was extra pay, too. It was really nice. And we would go down there once a month to fly and kept up our Reserve (status). And when I moved to Duluth, it become a chore. You know, to go down there. So I quit.
DH: So, was there any story during your time in WWII that I didn’t ask about – any stories that you want to have down for the record? Any story that you thought was kind of amazing, or funny, or……?

JD: Wait a minute. Let me see.
(Kate) Yes, when you were in the elevator with Bob Hope. Do you remember when you were in the elevator with Bob Hope? That’s kind of a funny story.
JD: Where the hell was I? I was coming home.
(Kate) Memphis? You were at…the Drake Hotel in Memphis.
JD: Yeah. Bob Hope and Bing Crosby. They were together. And come down and who the hell was the girl? Joan Bennett. There was the three of them and I was in my Navy uniform and I got out and there was the two of them, and her, see. I said to her “You know, if you come out and have dinner with me, you’d have a lot more fun than with these two old guys!” (Laughter) I didn’t get a chuckle from those two. She left and she said “I believe you’re right. But I’ve got to go to this, see.” (More laughter) I gave them two a little jab.
DH: And they didn’t say anything, right?

JD: Well, I was in uniform, see.
DH: That was good. Are there any other stories that you can think of, that you might want to tell for the record, or..? You’ve got some great ones already. But I always like to be sure I ask that question.
JD: Well, I……what the hell was that deal when they didn’t give me the clip?

(Kate) Hey Dad. Tell them about how many oil slicks were off the US Coast. You know, when you worked reconnaissance. When you still in the United States and you were flying reconnaissance. Or do you remember when there would be blackouts on the eastern coast?
JD: No, they was…when I was flying, well to make a long story short, the whole East Coast shore was covered with oil slicks, from all the sunken ships. The tankers that were sunk there. And the whole East Coast was just inundated with bunker oil. You wouldn’t believe it. You wouldn’t believe the….
(Kate) The German U Boats could get that close to us?

JD: Oh sure. In fact, it wasn’t until we ….actually, dirigibles, little dirigibles were ____ to anti-sub. _____depth charges. They were perfect. They were better than planes, because they could hover. You know. And that was right by….what was the name of that town, on the East Coast, where the balloons were? When did the big Zeppelin go down? Well, maybe you don’t remember that.
DH: I don’t know what you’re talking about; I don’t know what it was. So, this oil, did that have a lot of damage to the shoreline?

It was all bunker oil. Yeah. It just covered the whole East Coast.
DH: You don’t hear about that a lot, so…..
JD: Well, it was covered. Absolutely covered.
DH: So, I just want to say thank you for allowing me to do this interview with you today.
JD: I hope it was worth your while.
DH: Yeah. I think I have six pages of personal notes, so that’s a great story.
(Kate) The other thing, from a historical perspective is (interruptions)
JD: Well, like I say that book there (which book?) has the history in it, too, but if you’ve got that book, then you know.
DH: Yeah, well I haven’t read it. So I’ll probably go and read it.
JD: But if you need it, I can loan it to you.
(Kate) He’s like the oldest surviving privately, still family owned funeral in, like, the state.
DH: So can I ask you a couple of questions about your funeral home?
(Kate) Let me explain it, or he won’t know where this is coming from. I told him about Dougherty Funeral Home being the oldest, still privately, family owned, business, funeral home.
Yeah. We’re the oldest family continuing funeral in the State of Minnesota.

DH: Oh, wow.
(Kate) So he’s going to ask you some questions now about the history of the funeral home. This one is in Hibbing, okay, so now, see, we’ve got you twice. Well, we better get it before he……
JD: Well, all I know is, my father went to Hibbing in 1904. In 1904. He went up to Hibbing as a bookkeeper for a livery barn. And the man who owned the livery barn naturally had the hearses and the carriages, so he was, you might say, the undertaker.
DH: OK.
JD: And my father, his secondary job was to help him. That’s how we got into the funeral business.
DH: d when was Dougherty Funeral Home, in name, started? When was the first technical start?
JD: I think in 1926. That sort of rings a bell.
DH: And it was started by your father, correct?
JD: Yes.
DH: In Hibbing?

JD: In Hibbing. Yeah.
DH: And did you kind of grow up in that business, I would imagine, a little bit, too?

JD: Yes. In fact, I had, you remember in those days you didn’t have communications. On holidays, I would have to sit at the funeral home, to answer the phone. The rest of the family were all celebrating. And I had to sit at the funeral home, in case they had a death call.
DH: And when you were growing up, did you envision that you would be running the funeral home down here in Duluth, too?

JD: Never thought about it, no. In fact, my father said, when I graduated from high school, he said “I need some help. Go and get your license.” I didn’t choose to be. I was told. But I was the oldest one. The oldest one in the family. Yeah.
DH: And so right after high school, you helped out with the funeral home.
JD: Oh, absolutely. Yes. I made all the night calls, when I was in high school.
DH: And at what point did you decide to move to Duluth?

JD: Well, how I happened to move to Duluth was …..now this I don’t want you to put in, but my father, in his infinite wisdom, founded a ten-way partnership. No, don’t put that down here. This is just for your….But had four sisters. Three of them were trying to tell me how to run the business. Remember, they were equal partners. So I said to myself, no way in hell am I going to continue this, see. So I was at the point of…I was still flying in the Reserves, you know, cause it was extra pay. And I was contemplating going full-time, when this place opened up, for sale. And a guy called me, see. Wanted me to go into partnership with him. Well, I wanted no partnerships! To make a long story short, I ended up buying it, see. But I didn’t want a family connection, because, like I say, my sisters were equal partners, and my father never thought it would…and frankly, when it did, when I did this, it opened it up for my two brothers for getting control of the funeral home in Hibbing, see.

DH: And did your two brothers then control the one in Hibbing, then?

JD: My two younger brothers run the funeral home in Hibbing.
DH: But this is yours, then? And there is still the one still running up in Hibbing, too, then?

JD: Yes.
(Kate) And now another cousin has bought another funeral home down in Minneapolis.
DH: So there’s three Dougherty funeral homes?

JD: There’s three – Hibbing, Minneapolis, Duluth.
DH: Incredible. But one of your sons is also operating the one currently?

(Kate) So now all three funeral homes are now being run by the sons of the original family. So the family tradition very much continues.
DH: Yeah. And that’s a good thing to have on record. So thanks for bringing that up. I just want to thank you for doing this interview and thank you for your service to this country, as well.
JD: Thank you.
DH: No problem.
JD: It’s mighty nice to think you’re in the history books.

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