Al Cismowski

Al M. Cismowski

Mr. Cismowski entered the Army Air Corps in October 1942.

He served as a Captain, pilot and contracting officer with the 437 Troop Carrier Wing in England, France, and Germany. Entered pilot training in 1943 and graduated as a transport pilot in January 1945. Flew supply missions for the Normandy invasion transporting troops from England to France. Flew four paradrop supply missions to the beleaguered and surrounded troops at Bastogne during the Battle of the Bulge. Towed two fully loaded gliders over the Rhine River to support troops in battle.

Mr. Cismowski was relieved from active duty as a Captain.

Recalled to active duty and retired form active duty in October 1965 as a Major.

Source: Hometown Heroes:  The Saint Louis County World War II Project, page 353

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Date: August 5, 2008

Oral History Interview with: Al Cismowski (WWII Vet)

Interviewed by: Dan Hartman Program Director of Veterans Memorial Hall

Transcribed by: Karin Swor Program Assistant of Veterans Memorial Hall

D.H. Dan Hartman A.C. Al Cismowski 

D.H. I am doing an interview today with Major Al Cismowski, August 5, 2008. OK, If I can have said for the record, spell your last name out.

A.C. OK, it is C-I-S-M-O-W-S-K-I

D.H. And you are a veteran of WWII?

A.C. Yes

D.H. And you served in what division, what unit, what was your basic role?

A.C. I served in a transport unit called a Two-Carriers and that was the start of the beginning of my career with the Valor trip to the war.

D.H. That is from a pilot’s standpoint?

A.C. That’s correct, yes.

D.H. I guess then we will start the interview. What were your parents first and last names?

A.C. Both of my parents were from Poland. My father’s name was Adam Cismowski and my mother’s name was Agnes O’Daea, that is a little unusual for a Polish name but it is true. I verified that by looking at a tombstone of her mother in Poland, which she never saw.

D.H. Are you 100% Polish, then?

A.C. Yes

D.H. When you grew up I imagine your Polish background was of some importance to your family?

A.C. Very much so, our religion and all of our activities and so forth, and our company and I listened to a lot of Polish conversation. However I never learned the language myself.

D.H. Did you ever have a desire too?

A.C. No, when my mother came over she said “I am now an American” and she spoke English as much as she could.

D.H. So your mother came right over from Poland?

A.C. Yes

D.H. How about your father, was he?

A.C. He came over from Poland.

D.H. So you are part of the first American family born in America?

A.C. That’s correct.

D.H. Did your parents meet over in Poland?

A.C. No, they met here in Superior, Wisconsin.

D.H. So did you grow up in Superior?

A.C. No, I grew up in Kenwood. Duluth.

D.H. At what age did you move to Kenwood or were you born in Kenwood?

A.C. I was born in Kenwood in 1921.

D.H. OK, do you know what hospital you were born in or were you born at home?

A.C. I was the youngest of 12 children and I don’t recall of any of them being born in the hospital.

D.H. So you grew up in a very big family?

A.C. That’s right. We had neighbors and one neighbor’s wife would take care of the others as midwifes.

D.H. Do you think that worked out pretty good for them?

A.C. Well, we all lived through it.

D.H. I imagine both your families, being Polish, growing up, were they Catholic?

A.C. Yes

D.H. I imagine religion was very important?

A.C. Very important.

D.H. Where did you guys go to church, locally?

A.C. We went to St. Mary’s Star of the Sea, in Duluth.

D.H. And do you still attend St. Mary’s Star of the Sea?

A.C. Daily if possible.

D.H. Correct me if I am wrong, but St. Mary’s was the Polish Church in town?

A.C. Yes, the Polish church.

D.H. Was it always called St. Mary’s Star of the Sea?

A.C. Yes

D.H. When you were growing up did your parents attend Mass regularly, once a week?

A.C. Yes, once a week, always, never miss Sundays and Holy Days.

D.H. It has been kind of odd to me that several of the people that I had interviewed the families had a hard time getting to church regularly.

A.C. Yes, but we always made it, for some reason or another. If we couldn’t make it no one else could either. But I cannot remember incidents.

D.H. So you were born in 1921, growing up in the 1920s how did your family get to church? What kind of vehicle did you guys drive?

A.C. My father had a car all the time, they were older cars but we managed to drive to church
D.H. Do you remember any of the car’s he drove?

A.C. Oh yes, the first one was a Twin Studebaker, that was in the early ’20s, later on he had an Essex.

D.H. Who made the Essex?

A.C. I don’t know who made it, I don’t know who made the Essex, he had a couple of them.

D.H. Did he let you drive them at all?

A.C. Pardon me.

D.H. Did he let you drive them at all?

A.C. No, I wasn’t old enough then, no.

D.H. OK, as a child growing up in the 1920s what were some of the things that you did for fun, what games did you play?

A.C. Some of them weren’t too popular. I had a cousin and we always had a contest to see how many birds we could eliminate with a slingshot. We lived close to Chester Park so we did a lot of skiing, ski jumping, and ice-skating in the wintertime. We didn’t have access to swimming pools then.

D.H. Did you guy’s ice skate in Chester Park too?

A.C. No, we had a, where the College of St. Scholasticia is, Chester Creek had a dam there. In the summer time we could do some swimming in that, dam, which created a real small lake. In the wintertime we would clear off the ice and we would ice skate.

D.H. Was that a pretty popular place for a lot of your neighborhood friends?

A.C. Yes, right, there wasn’t too much social activity going on then, we knew all the neighbors but we pretty much kept to yourself.

D.H. Just you and your cousin and your brothers and sisters?

A.C. What?

D.H. Was it pretty much your family and your cousin, who was your circle of people that you would go ice-skating with or ski jumping?

A.C. Well, there would be neighbors. About 5 fellows that were close to my same age, in the school, maybe 6 or 7.
D.H. Do you remember any of them by name?

A.C. By name, yes, I remember by name the Dincau’s, they were twins. I had a cousin that is still alive, his name is Kenuit, K-E-N-U-I-T.

D.H. Ski jumping, that was a pretty popular thing back then.

A.C. Yes, that is right, exactly.

D.H. Do you want to describe that a little bit, like how it is different than today?

A.C. Well, considering what they do today, what we do is quite primitive. Because we would jump, not like they do today, ski flying. But we didn’t have that kind of equipment, but they had the slides in Chester Bowl, the both of them and we managed to use both of them at the time.

D.H. So you guys would actually do the large ski jumps, here in Chester Park?

A.C. Yeah, we weren’t professionals but we managed to come down standing up.

D.H. I tell you, it would be pretty scary for me doing that today on those jumps. How big of a crowd, I heard there used to be large competitions there?

A.C. There was, right. I can remember some of the names even who were popular at the ski jump at the time. George Kotlarek was one. He was very well known. He was the oldest one. Then there was a fellow by the name of Ken Kenuit also, he was a good jumper. There were several more but I can’t remember right off hand.

D.H. Did you guys ever do any downhill skiing?

A.C. No, we never did any downhill skiing. Most of ours just ski jumping.

D.H. OK, I imagine it had to be a pretty fun sport?

A.C. Oh yeah, we enjoyed it.

D.H. Describe the crowds that use to come and watch this at Chester Park, were they pretty big?

A.C. Yes, and they also charged admission.

D.H. Any idea how much that cost back then to watch somebody ski jump?

A.C. I think it was a 25-cent ticket, which was pretty healthy at that time. I don’t think it was any more than that. For 25 cents you can go a pretty long ways.
D.H. Anything different about Chester Bowl today compared to back then that you want to know for the record?

A.C. Well, they have more activity now. Years ago when I was growing up they had 4 toboggan slides. It started on the top of Kenwood Avenue, coming up from the Blvd. And then down into the ball field, now that they have there. They had 4 slides, wooden slides that was one of the main entertainments; we had to pay for that also. It was quite fun using them, it was a pretty steep hill coming down real fast and so forth, on toboggan’s.

D.H. When did they take that down?

A.C. What?

D.H. When did they take that down?

A.C. Oh, that has been quite a number of years now; maybe over 30 years ago, I think they took it down.

D.H. But you said that was one of the big attractions?

A.C. That was, exactly, yeah. A lot of fun going down tobogganing.

D.H. I never really have seen a photo of that; I would be curious to see a photo of that.

A.C. Have you ever seen a photo?

D.H. I have not.

A.C. I haven’t either. I haven’t seen one at all. If I ever see on I would like to show it to you, but I haven’t seen it. Is this the first you heard of it?

D.H. Yes it is the first I ever heard of it.

A.C. OK, toboggan slide in Chester Bowl.

D.H. You are probably the 4th person I have talked to that used the ski jump there too. I will move on to the Chester Park, Kenwood area, how did you like growing up in that neighborhood? Did you feel pretty safe growing up?

A.C. I can’t remember ever locking the doors in our house, we never locked our doors, it was just unheard of. So I don’t even know if we had locks on our doors, I don’t think we did have.

D.H. Was there a certain type of ethnic background that was very popular in Kenwood, was it a Polish neighborhood was it mixed?

A.C. No, it was a mixed neighborhood, matter of fact, just on the outskirts of Kenwood, up by the school, there was a place we called Finn town, all the Finnish people lived there. There were Swedes and Norwegian’s all around us and a couple of Irish families. I think in Kenwood alone there was probably about 1-2-3-4-5, about 6 Polish families.

D.H. So, you definitely seemed to know each other?

A.C. Oh yeah, it was very well mixed.

D.H. Was there a Polish neighborhood in Duluth?

A.C. Yes, exactly, there was two of them actually, one in the north central hillside, on the Blvd. and there was a lot of Polish people there in the central area, and also another settlement, a lot of Polish people, was in the West End around 24th Avenue West where there was another Polish church, St. Peter and Paul. The church is now banded but that was a Polish church.

D.H. Was that one of the churches that combined to form Holy Family?

A.C. Yes, right, right. Three churches combined out there, to Holy Family.

D.H. Now, I noticed that you called it the West End you did not call it Lincoln Park.

A.C. No, we never heard of Lincoln Park, the river out there but we always called it the West End.

D.H. Is that something that, many of the people that I interviewed take pride that they would rather call it the West End still? Is that the same for you as well, do you refer to it always as the West End?

A.C. Yes, I would.

D. H. Do you ever remember calling the downtown West End cork town? I have heard some people refer to it as cork town.

A.C. Cork town, no, not personally I haven’t. But maybe because of the Civic buildings down there, maybe that is why they use that term. I have not heard that term.

D.H. Growing up in the 1920s, you lived during the prohibition area, is there any stories that you remember about that? Was your family involved or your friends involved in producing any moonshine?

A.C. I can remember that, all though I was fairly young, but I remember that we made beer in the house. I remember that we had a big old crock and I used to watch the foam come to the top and then we had to siphon the beer out with a siphoning hose. A couple of times I had to start the siphoning, and I was just a kid but I would taste the beer and then we would bottle the beer.

D.H. What did you think of the taste of it?

A.C. Well, I didn’t remember, but I was too young and I didn’t drink too much. Then we bottled it. I can recall, we had a finished basement; it was cool down there and I can remember one night we heard a couple of pops and bangs and what happened the bottles were exploding, popped the caps right off of them.

D.H. Were you guys ever scarred of the police coming?

A.C. No, we didn’t worry about that; there was no concern about that.

D.H. Was there no much enforcement?

A.C. No, I don’t ever remember police coming for anything like that. Of course there was a lot of Whiskey being made at the time. I can remember the word “White Lighting”. White Lighting was 200% alcohol that was pure alcohol. I can remember one time my brother drinking one time and he passed out.

D.H. Did your family sell the booze or was it only for your own consumption.

A.C. Oh no, just for our own consumption. There was bootlegging going on, though, because I know some of the neighbors they knew where to go to buy some and so forth. There wasn’t much alcohol around our house, it was just used for entertainment and that is all and never witnessed my father being intoxicated.

D.H. When you said they produced their own beer in house, was this a family recipe that they took over from Poland?

A.C. No it was something, as a matter of fact you can buy the malt at the store. Regular malt and you can even get the directions on how to make it.

D.H. Considering it was illegal, it just didn’t seem.

A.C. I don’t think it was illegal at the time. As far as I know, I don’t think so. It may have been illegal to make it for resale but for home consumption it was no problem.

D.H. Who did you say was actually the one that bought the White Lighting? Was it your cousin, your Uncle?

A.C. No, It was my brother and his friends, I can recall that, they went out of town someplace, they went out west someplace, out west, they didn’t know where it was, they didn’t buy it locally.

D.H. Do you remember the city having many problems with prohibition? Were there a lot of people getting busted, being put in jail for it?

A.C. No. I don’t recall that, there was not too much at all at the time, not around here. There was in the bigger cities, as you well know, a lot of big business in the cities.

D.H. Did you ever hear about Al Capone’s brother who actually had a bottling company here in Duluth?

A.C. A bottling company in Duluth, no I didn’t hear that. I know something about Al Capone; I can remember that, I knew he had a place down in Wisconsin.

D.H. AL Capone’s brother, called Caps Capone, had a bottling factory here in Duluth. He is actually buried at Forest Hill Cemetery. I have always been trying to find, so obviously you never heard about that then at all?

A.C. No, and incidentally in our home. We raised a lot of our own products, we always had gardens we raised all the vegetables, we had chickens, we had a cow and when I became big enough I had to milk the cow morning and night. Before I went to school in the morning and in the evening.

D.H. This is in Kenwood?

A.C. In Kenwood, right where all the houses are built now was all pastureland for us. It was free land we don’t know who owned it and it didn’t make much difference at the time.

D.H. It was a little different than today then?

A.C. Yes, oh yes.

D.H. So you actually had a fairly decent size plot of land for gardening?

A.C. We had five lots on Kenwood Avenue that we owned, and they are still there, five of them. We had acres of fields all around us and there was a little shopping center.

D.H. So that was kind of the area where it was then?

A.C. Right

D.H. So I imagine it is a little unique for you to go up in there because you can see what it used to be and remembering what it is today.

A.C. Yes, exactly, I will never forget the layout of the land, what it was and so forth, the way it was laid out because I traversed it so many times.

D.H. What strikes you the most about going up there today, comparing it to back then?

A.C. And changing it? The shopping area, primarily, starting right from Buffalo street on up, on up to the schools.

D.H. The school wasn’t there, I can’t imagine that at all either?

A.C. Yes, there were two schools. The old school was on Cleveland Street and it was an old wooden school. That was just before my time. Later on the church bought it, St Ben’s bought that they were holding services in that school. Then they built the new one where it is presently located. That is the one I started, I went to the first five grades there. Then I went downtown after that.

D.H. And by downtown you mean Central High School?

A.C. No, I went to St, Mary’s Star of the Sea for two years. They had a school there, right where the nursing home is now.

D.H. Oh, I didn’t know that.

A.C. It is not a nursing home anymore, they built a new nursing home and tore that down and now it is the emergency entry. That was, right on that corner lot, was the Polish school. St. Mary’s Star school, I went there my seventh and eighth grades.

D.H. Is there anything else growing up in the 1920’s that you would like to talk about that I haven’t really asked about?

A.C. In the 1920’s, well, I can remember when the prohibition was on and when the election, I can remember Al Smith running for president, and he had to be a catholic, one of the first ones. He was defeated by Hoover and then there was a lot of talk about ending the prohibition, and it did end then, I don’t know, 1932 or 34 I don’t know exactly when that ended. I also remember this, let’s talk about cigarettes. There was a grocery store right next to our house and occasionally my father would send me over to the store with ten-cents to buy a package of Wing cigarettes, a full pack for ten-cents.

D.H. A little bit more today.

A.C. There was no questions asked, as are you old enough, there was no age limit or nothing like that. Anyone could buy. Oh, I remember you could buy three bottles of beer for twenty-five cents.

D.H. Was that local beer, was that Fitgers or was that anything?

A.C. It was a local beer; exactly, I think it was Fitgers at the time, Peoples and Fitgers. Peoples beer and Fitgers. They also had a Karlsbrau beer. Did you know about that, in Duluth? Karlsbrau that was also a brewery in Duluth.

D.H. How was it, was the beer good?

A.C. Oh yeah, well. Beer was beer. I was, we were a poor family and the clothes we wore to church they were special clothes and when we came back we had to change our clothes. We had Sunday go to church clothes I had two pair of shoes and the ones I wore for everyday had holes in the soles so I used to put cardboard in it so my feet wouldn’t be on the ground. Money was scarce. I remember we were going to lose our house because my father had a $2,000 mortgage on it and he was crippled and doing the best he could selling wash machines but finally my sister got married and her husband took the house over and we had life tenants in it. They lived in the house also, my sister and her husband.

D.H. So your father, as his occupation, sold wash machines?

A.C. Maytag washers, gasoline engines, out in the country there was no electricity up around the Gnesen area, they didn’t get that in until later.

D.H. Your mother was she at home taking care of the kids, or did she have a job as well?

A.C. I am the youngest of twelve children.

D.H. So I imagine she stayed at home.

A.C. Absolutely, she did, she was not educated.

D.H. Was she able to read or write?

A.C. She learned to read the newspaper. She would always read the death columns and say oh, they were getting pretty old.

D.H. And your father, could he read and write?

A.C. Yes, well enough to get by. He was a salesman and he had to know how to write a contract up, which didn’t require much detail.

D.H. You said your father was disabled, what did he?

A.C. He had Rheumatoid he was crippled from it, but he was the foreman for the Villa. Now the Villa Farm, that doesn’t mean anything to you, I don’t think, College of St. Scholastica, you know that, that’s before and we called it the Villa only. They had a farm there and my father was the caretaker of the whole farm. They had horses, cows, pigs, chickens, everything. That whole area was garden and the Nun’s would come up and do the cultivating even. My father was the caretaker of that farm.

D.H. In addition to this he was a Maytag salesman too.

A.C. Well, that was a different job. It is about time this thing went off.

D.H. As you grew older and you moved into the 1930’s, I kind of want to go back and ask you a basic political question, as a Catholic and watching Al Smith, did you want him to win or was that a?

A.C. Oh yes, I imagine most Catholics voted for him. I can remember that there was a lot of bad talk about Hoover at the time but I wasn’t old enough where it meant too much to me.

D.H. What did you think of FDR when he got elected in 1932?

A.C. Everyone was pretty much elated, as a fact his motorcade came down the Kenwood Avenue, my mother was out on the lawn and she waved to him and he waved back, boy she never forgot that.

D.H. Really, so you remember Roosevelt coming to Duluth?

A.C. Oh absolutely, no wait a minute no, I take that back, it was Kennedy that she saw. No, I don’t remember Roosevelt coming, no, scratch that, I am sorry.

D.H. Kennedy, I didn’t know Roosevelt came, but she waved to Kennedy?

A.C. Kennedy, yes, he came through.

D.H. When Roosevelt got elected in 1932 though, the country was in the middle of the Great Depression already. Could you tell what the Great Depression was?

A.C. Absolutely, I know what it was like. If we wouldn’t have had our own resources, our own garden, and so forth, we couldn’t afford to buy the food. I can remember we had a cow; I would milk the cow, bottled the milk, put the cork in the top and delivered it to a neighbor across the street for five cents a quart. We had some surplus milk, and of course we never run short of eggs, we had the chickens, and we had meat and berry patch and all the kind of vegetables that would grow, we had plenty of that. I remember putting the carrots in sand, and put them in the root cellar so they would keep in the wintertime without freezing.

D.H. It was very important that you had that land then?

A.C. What?
D.H. It was very important that you had that extra?

A.C. Absolutely, absolutely, right, we were healthy but not wealthy.

D.H. But you guys were doing this before the Great Depression too, weren’t you, or did it really kick in then?

A.C. Even before, yes, right, because we were never wealthy, raising all the children that was quite expensive. We never used the hospital; we never went to the hospital. There is one time I was sick I had Spinal Meningitis we called the doctor and he came to the house. Dr. P.S. Rudi, his son is still at the place down there. Dr. P.S. Rudi he came to the house, looked at me, I can remember this, and he said this boy is serious, really sick. I remember he picked me up and carried me out of the house into his car and took me down to the hospital and they gave me blood transfusions. I was in the hospital for one week and I recovered. That’s when I started seventh grade at St. Mary’s Star of the Sea. I just started there and I came down with, it was a form of Polio, they call it Spinal Meningitis.

D.H. I imagine that was a pretty painful experience?

A.C. Well, I don’t remember any pain associated with it. I guess I was pretty sick and I just don’t remember the pain.

D.H. OK, this was around seventh grade?

A.C. Yes, so I would have been what, eleven, twelve years old.

D.H. When the Great Depression hit Duluth, could you tell, like were there businesses closing down, I mean do you remember friends having issues with money too?

A.C. Let’s see, what were some of the main things? I don’t recall anything special. Everyone was, you didn’t see anything that would cost a lot. People weren’t buying expensive items and of course there were very few cars at the time. They had a streetcar running all the way up to Kenwood on tracks. We used that all the time.

D.H. Do you want to explain that a little bit? Were there streetcars all over Duluth at the time?

A.C. Yes, pretty much so.

D.H. Do you remember the incline?

A.C. Yes, I remember the incline. I rode that, yes I did.

D.H. Was it fun, do you remember was it a fast form of transportation?

A.C. No, it was slow, it went up and down, it was slow it didn’t go fast or anything.

D.H. Did a lot of people ride it for recreation use?

A.C. That I don’t recall, most of them, of course were residents they used it rather than walking down the hill and so forth.

D.H. Do you miss the streetcars and the incline sometime?

A.C. No, not at all, no and the streetcar used to turn around up where the shopping area is now. They had kind of a semi-circle where they would go right around and go back down on the same track. They only had one track.

D.H. So there was probably only one streetcar then?

A.C. One streetcar.

D.H. Growing up in the 1930’s was the age of movies. There were great movies that came out; I heard there was several theaters in Duluth even. Do you remember going to movies as a kid?

A.C. Oh absolutely, we went down Superior Street, there was two theaters right between Lake Avenue and First Avenue East. One was called the Strand, and on that particular property right now, they are building a superstructure, you can see it is going up, I don’t know what they are putting in there. The other theater, next to it, was the Lake theater and of course we went to the Lake because the Lake Theater only charged us five-cents and the Strand theatre was ten cents and we couldn’t afford the ten cents so we went to the five-cent movies.

D.H. Do you remember any of the movies you used to go watch?

A.C. No, I don’t, no. They were western movies and that but I don’t remember. After we would go across the street to Coney Island and Coney Island’s were five cents at the time.

D.H. So there was still a Coney Island?

A.C. Oh, yes, exactly, it has been there a long time.

D.H. Which one, the Coney Island Original?

A.C. On Superior Street. Five cents, and most of the time we would walk all the way from Kenwood, which is almost three miles. We would walk down and walk back because the carfare was ten cents and we couldn’t afford that.

D.H. I didn’t know there was still a Coney Island back then. When you went to these movies did you go with friends or did you bring girls on dates there sometimes?

A.C. No, we went with three, four guys would go sometimes, that’s all. We weren’t girl happy at the time, yet.

D.H. But I imagine later in the 1930s that was kind of in your teenage years, wasn’t it?

A.C. Later in 1930s, oh boy. Let’s see when did I go. I went to High School we didn’t get to that right?

D.H. No, so I guess we are going to High School. Where did you go to High School at?

A.C. Boys Cathedral.

D.H. Boys Cathedral?

A.C. Right next door here.

D.H. And how was that going to High School there compared to St. Mary’s Star of the Sea, was it quite different?

A.C. Yes, it was different because, and I was quite mortified at some of the things that went on with some of the boys. They would talk and so forth because at St. Mary’s Star of the Sea we were very conservative, we were younger and holier. So I wasn’t too happy, with what I heard and saw how some of the boys carried on. But they were from more of a loose area downtown and so forth. We were a tight knit, a tight area.

D.H. Do you remember that pretty well, then?

A.C. Oh yes, I remember that. I graduated when I was seventeen years old I hadn’t turned eighteen yet. I couldn’t go out for athletics because I had to go home and take care of the livestock. The rest of the kids, they would go out for sports.

D.H. So you did not play sports in high school but your other brother’s and sisters did?

A.C. No, I didn’t play sports, no I didn’t. Another thing the little bit that we did practice all the other kids they seemed to be much better than me, my classmates. But now as they are dying off, and one just recently, I found out that most of them were two years older than me. That is a fact; matter of fact there is one up in St. Ben’s Health Center right now, Vince Nowak, he was in my class, he was two years older than me, he is still alive. Al Agostino died last year, he was two years older than me and we were all in the same class.

D.H. You were in the same class as Al Agostino?

A.C. Yes, and Carl Matell, he died a few years ago, he was older than me and the McGlauflin boys, both of them, one was a policeman he was older. Now I realize why they were better athletes than me, at that age it makes a big difference.

D.H. It definitely doesn’t hurt.

A.C. But anyway, I perhaps I was doing better taking care of the house and stuff. The house I call it the farm, house farm.

D.H. Your other brothers and sisters did they take on jobs in town to help pay for the house?

A.C. No, unfortunately and my one brother, I should mention this, the one that could perhaps afford to do the most, really didn’t have much, and of course the others were married and had their families to take care of. It was only three boys and the oldest one had a big family he had to take care of that. I was the youngest and I couldn’t do much, but the middle one he owned oil companies in Duluth and he was pretty well off. He helped my father out some but he didn’t help in saving the house. But he was married and he had his own problems.

D.H. How much older was that brother than you at the time?

A.C. He was ten years older than me.

D.H. That is quite a difference though. When you graduated from high school what were you thinking you were going to go into, what occupation were you going to do?

A.C. At the time I was pushing gasoline, working gas stations for my brother.

D.H. Where at?

A.C. In Duluth, West End, then I worked the dairy. I milked eight cows for fifty cents, washed the bottles for another fifty cents and at one time one guy didn’t show up to milk cows so I had to milk his eight. I milked sixteen cows at one milking. My hands were pretty sore.

D.H. Where did you go do this, was this at your parents farm?

A.C. What?

D.H. Where did you go to do dairy at?

A.C. It was called Miller Grove Dairy, which is just up outside of Kenwood.

D.H. Now when you were a kid did you walk to a lot of these places or did you take streetcars?

A.C. Walk all the time, I never had a bicycle, could never afford a bicycle, never had one.

D.H. Now, living in the 1930s and through the 1920s a lot of things to entertain kids and teenagers were free, like ski jumping and things of that nature, for the most part. Do you think kids were better off not having the things we have today, or about the same?

A.C. Well, I imagine all these things now, educating people more, because they are seeing more today, which we didn’t see. The little bit that you read in the newspaper, we had radio, we listened to radio quite a bit, and that was it. We didn’t have television, but the radio was the main thing.

D.H. Was it family entertainment to listen to the radio?

A.C. I remember my father used to listen to ball games and there was some entertainment, and they had some good religious programs on also.

D.H. I’m familiar with the fact that you are in the Knights of Columbus today, did you join the Knights at an early age?

A.C. No, I joined when I was in the Military, years ago.

D.H. Was your father a Knight?

A.C. No he was never, no. He belonged to another organization, which is a Polish organization, called the Kosta Society, which I am a member of also. I am a member of what is it, fourteen organizations or sixteen, I don’t know? I have it written down somewhere. I will say fourteen to be sure and most of them are dues paying.

D.H. At what age did you join the Military or were you drafted?

A.C. I was working in Chicago at the time and I received my draft papers. That would have been in 1942 and I immediately quit my job and rushed back to Duluth and went to the post office and said I want to enlist in the Air Corpss. I didn’t want to get in the Army.

D.H. Well, then I am going to back up here a little bit then.

A.C. They said I cannot enlist you in the Air Corpss you are going to Fort Snelling and they will tell you down there what’s going to happen. So I went to Fort Snelling.

D.H. I am going to back up a little bit here.

A.C. Go ahead.

D.H. I want to bring you back to 1939 when Hitler decided to invade Poland and you know World War II began. What were you thinking, I mean were you thinking along the way?

A.C. We knew we were going to be in war but I didn’t know anything about World War I and at that time they didn’t talk about World War I like they talk about World War II today. World War I, it wasn’t too many years before I was born and growing up. I learned very little about World War I from conversation and news and so forth. Whereas today, my gosh, we are flooded with information on World War II and current events of all the wars. So I didn’t know too much about it at the time but in 1939 we heard and read about Hitler, but we didn’t know what kind of a tyrant he was at the time. Then in ’39.

D.H. Were you thinking you were going to be drafted soon?

A.C. Oh yes, I knew I would be eligible. Oh, incidentally, prior to that I wasn’t old enough to join the CCC’s. You know about that?

D.H. Yes I do.

A.C. OK, fine. So I missed that. Some of my buddies went though; they were a year or two older than me.

D.H. Did you want to go in the CCC’s?

A.C. Well, I would have gone, right, but they didn’t accept me. Oh sure, you get free room and board and make a few dollars.

D.H. But you just weren’t old enough yet?

A.C. No I wasn’t old enough so I had to work in the gas station, push gas and milk cows and make hay in the summer time.

D.H. So you definitely probably have rather done the CCC?

A.C. Oh yes

D.H. Now the CCC’s was an invention of Franklin Roosevelt and were you pretty happy with Franklin Roosevelt as a president?

A.C. As far as I can remember, yes, right. I am sure later on when I voted for him when I was allegeable.

D.H. Were your parents pretty happy with him?

A.C. Yes, right, he brought us out of the depression and the CCC camps were one of his starts. He took thousands and thousands of young people to work, took them off the streets, gave them a place to live and work and some pay so it was great.

D.H. Then we will move forward to: Did you go to Fort Snelling?

A.C. I went to Fort Snelling and told them I wanted to go to the Air Corpss. They said no way, but we are giving tests and you have to pass with a high test to get in the Air Force otherwise you are going in the Army, Marines or maybe the Navy. So I took the test and I passed the test. I was accepted for the Air Force.

D.H. I imagine you were pretty happy to pass the test?

A.C. Oh yes, absolutely. They put me on a train and I went right from Duluth to a base in Texas, Big Springs, Texas, which was a bombardier-training base. I had no basic training what so ever, I didn’t know what a gun was outside of the ones that I used as a kid, in hunting. I had no idea what drilling was or anything else. We went right to the base, they gave us a uniform at the base, the next morning, the first Sergeant called us out lined us up, we couldn’t even stay in a straight line because we weren’t trained. He said can any of you guys type? So I thought that boy that was a pretty easy job, so my hand went up, so he said come on Cismowski, and he put me in the supply room as a typist. Seventeen days later, I think I set a record; I was promoted to Private First Class. Seventeen days after leaving Fort Snelling, and that is on record.

D.H. So how long did you work in the supply room as a typist?

A.C. Well, I worked in that for about two months and then we transferred to another base, San Angelo, Texas.

D.H. How was that? I mean this is probably the first time you left, oh, you went to Chicago before.

A.C. I was in Chicago working as a welder, a welder in Chicago.

D.H. A welder? How did you get to be a welder?

A.C. Well, I was a clean-up guy and during the lunch hour I was watching some of the other fellows doing some welding and one of them kind of took me under hand and he said “do you think you can do this” I said, well I could try. It really wasn’t welding it was called “brazing.” It was torch welding, not electric. So they put us on kind of a bicycle and the tube would go around and we would have to fill in with the “brazing.” I did a pretty good job and the foreman came, and he said, “what are you doing there” he chewed me out. I said, I got scared, so I said well I was doing. He said let me see what you did? He said “who did this” I said “I did”. He said “you did a good job” I am going to have you do a few more. So anyway I became a brazier, which we call a welder. I worked for two companies in Chicago.

D.H. How did you like going to Chicago for the first time?

A.C. Oh, Chicago was great. My sister lived down there so I stayed with her, one of my sisters.

D.H. So I imagine it had to be a little bit different?

A.C. It was actually Oak Park, which is a suburb of Chicago, Oak Park they say is more of a residential area, one of the high class area not the inner core of Chicago.

D.H. Does your sister and her family still live in Chicago area?

A.C. Do they?

D.H. Yeah

A.C. No, they are all deceased. I am the only one alive, all my brothers and sisters are gone.

D.H. Does your sister have any family that lives in Chicago still?

A.C. No

D.H. I mean, she didn’t have any kids or anything?

A.C. She had a kid but he got killed and she had only one child.

D.H. OK, by accident I skipped over this, on December 7, 1941, Pearl Harbor Day, do you remember it?

A.C. Yup

D.H. Tell me where you were when you found out about it.

A.C. Exactly, a buddy of mine, we were at the Lyric Theater, and we had just got out of a movie. We walked outside, and at the time they had what they called a special newspaper, that’s not the name for it, Special Edition and they would call the news guy and they would go down the street and sell them. Special News, special news, I can’t recall exactly the term they use, something like that. But they would sell this special paper; they would put it out in a hurry. Pearl Harbor was bombed, well then we knew what was going to happen we would be going in the service for sure. But I remember that specifically.
D.H. Were you worried about it, or did you just figure well my time will come when it comes?

A.C. Yes, my time will come when it comes, that’s it. I can remember when I left then for Fort Snelling, I told my folks, I said, well I am going to war, a lot of people are dying, I may die but don’t worry about it, I said I think I will be prepared to meet my maker, because I always considered myself a pretty decent person. I don’t consider myself a sinner not intentionally, anyway.

D.H. Well, you seem to be a pretty religious catholic so I understand the statement. Now from Fort Snelling on. How did your parents respond to that, were they pretty worried about you?

A.C. Well, yes, because here I was the youngest one in the family and the only one going in the military. My other brother went for the physical but didn’t pass the physical. We joked about that I will tell you later. Anyway, so naturally being the youngest and all I was more or less the baby of the family, they were all going to miss me, they were worried about me I am sure. Of course I know I got a lot of prayers also, no question about that. Maybe that is what helped get me through. But I came back.

D.H. Yes you did

A.C. And there is a lot between that time and coming back, a lot.

D.H. I will move you back to right where we kind of left off at, you were a typist and you got moved to another base in San Angelo.

A.C. At the base, when I moved to San Angelo, same type of aircraft, bombardier training.

D.H. What was the type of aircraft that you were working with?

A.C. Well, I wasn’t working on the aircraft. They had twin engines. They were training bombardiers that’s what it was, it was training bombardiers. I had no association; I was still in the supply room. Then the Air Corps, they have to make sure we don’t say Air Force; there wasn’t an Air Force at the time. The Air Corps put out a regulation saying anybody with a high school education, and that’s as far as I had gone, I never could afford college, a high school education, if they take a test, and if they could pass a certain test, they could be eligible to become an Air Force Cadet. A cadet for the Air Corps, which is going into pilot training or navigation training or bombardier training. You would just get in the Air Corps, see, for officer training. Well, I thought what the heck, so I took the test, there was about fifty of us that took the test, and as I recall fifteen passed the test.

D.H. And were you one of the fifteen, I take it?

A.C. I was one of the fifteen and out of the fifteen, if I remember correctly, I think the figure is six maybe seven that were accepted, and I was accepted, much to my surprise.

D.H. Were you excited about this?

A.C. Oh, absolutely, because I would see the officers all dressed up. They would have what was called Forest Green and the pink trousers that was the color they used at the time. They weren’t pink but they used that anyway as the color scheme, so I’d see these officers and oh my god they looked good all dressed up and here we were GI’s, you know, just plain uniforms. So how do you get to be one of them? Well, I was on my way because I was accepted.

The end of the First tape

D.H. We are restarting the interview with Major Al Cismowski and it is August 5, 2008.
It sounds like you are about ready to become a pilot or you are in school to be a pilot?

A.C. Well, there are four stages to becoming a pilot, becoming qualified to become a combat pilot. First of all, while I was transferred to San Antonio, Texas for what they call “pre flight” This, you have two months of training to learn certain subjects relative to airplanes and meteorology. Plus you were given many tests, different types. While we were there for two months of schooling in San Antonio, Texas. If you passed that then you were qualified for pilot, no, then you were, it was determined whether you would be qualified to be a pilot, or if you weren’t qualified for a pilot, maybe some physical reasons, you know. Then you could be qualified for another officer job. You could be a bombardier or a navigator, but you had to be absolutely physically fit to be a pilot.

D.H. You made it through that training, obviously?

A.C. What?

D.H. You passed those tests?

A.C. Oh, I passed it, absolutely, so then they said Cismowski, you pass the test you can become a pilot but you have a choice. Do you rather be a bombardier or a navigator? Well there was no question; I wanted to be a pilot. So they said you will be trained to be a pilot.

D.H. So what happened after that?

A.C. OK, then you go into your first phase of flying, and that is two months. They call that primary training, you fly a single engine, dual cockpit, you have an instructor.

D.H. What kind of a plane was it, do you remember?
A.C. Yes, it was called a PT 19; this is a Fairchild, inline engine. We had to start the engine by cranking it, you cranked the engine, it was spring-loaded and you would get in and release the spring and turn it over and start the engine. So we never had to push the propeller down by hand, which you have seen that done.

D.H. How are they, were they fun to fly? Did you enjoy flying for the first time?

A.C. No, not to start with, the first time, I had never been in an airplane before.

D.H. SO the first time you were in an airplane you were trying to fly one?

A.C. First time and I was training. OK, and what you do, then you sit in the front seat and the instructor is behind you. That was in Burnet, Texas, and this is in July. I am pretty sure it is July, I have it recorded here, and it was hot. So 100 degrees and we get in the airplane and go up about eight thousand feet and go through a lot of maneuvers, loops, shondells, split rolls snap rolls and everything. The instructor really tried to wipe you out. He did everything he could to wash you out, you know, because to see if you could take it. Well that was a two-month training and we used to fly up to eight thousand feet because it would be real cool up there. That was two months and I passed that.

D.H. You go through a lot of tests for this, it seems?

A.C. Yes, and I was qualified for the next stage. Now that was primary training then I was qualified for Basic Training.

D.H. Explain that a little bit.

A.C. Basic Training, they put you in a larger aircraft.

D.H. Do you remember what the aircraft was called?

A.C. It was a single engine aircraft called a BT 13. They had a crazy name for it. The old rattlebox or something, I don’t remember, but it is not important. So I was in that for one month and oh, incidentally I have to go back, in primary training I almost got washed out. Washed out they meant, they kicked you out, you can’t go any further because I would get sick and I had to throw up, I got so sick. Vertigo and so forth, well that was bad so what happened, I would always go up and fly in the afternoon right after eating. The instructor he said, “you might not make it.” So what I did then, we used to have, we had our caps and we had covers, rain cap covers for the cover, they were elastic and so forth. So I asked him can I fly the back seat and you sit in the front? He said’ well that is unusual; you think you can fly the back? I said, “Would you let me”? He did. So, everyone else is just the opposite see, so I flew in the back seat and what happened, I would get sicker than hell. I would throw up in the bag and throw it overboard and I felt good then, and I made it through, five times, I had to throw my dinner overboard. Otherwise I would have been washed up. Then everyone said how come you are flying from the backseat? We would never tell anybody, and the instructor said “you’re great and you’re able to fly from the backseat while everyone else is flying from the front seat.” That was an incident.

D.H. That is a good story.

A.C. Now we are in basic training again.

D.H. OK

A.C. So, it is a bigger Airplane, pretty rough to fly but the first month I flew that. The second month the Army Air Corps came out and said we are going to train certain pilots in a twin-engine airplane in the second phase of basic training, which was first time. They never flew twin-engine before that, they always waited until advance training. So in basic I was with the first class to fly twin-engine airplanes with the second month of basic training.

D.H. Did you enjoy the twin-engine airplanes?

A.C. And I passed that, and I enjoyed it, it was fun. It was fun, but flying, going from a single-engine to a twin-engine was quite a change. Especially when you are just new in the training. But I passed it.

D.H. What was the plane called, do you remember, what was the twin engine?

A.C. Sure, Ah, ah, ah, oh gee I can’t, it was a Cessna twin-engine, yeah a Cessna twin-engine, we had a name for it, I forget, maybe I will find out later. I am surprised I can remember some of this stuff. OK, so I passed that. I was in Garden City, Kansas.

D.H. OK

A.C. And you talk about wind, I will never forget this. One time I was flying solo and I flew over the airfield, I was going to come in, make a pattern then come in to land. So I flew over the airfield and the building was slowing down, the plane was still going the airspeed but there I was moving over the ground, the wind was blowing so fast, so I put the flats down and I cut the engine back just to hold the airplane and the airplane almost stood still over the ground. That’s how strong the wind was, but it wasn’t dangerous because I still had my flying speed. As far as the speed through the air was concerned, not through the air but the air coming through me. So it held the airplane up, so I did that and people when I got to the ground they said what were you doing up there, you were almost standing still? Anyway, that was one incident. Well, I passed the twin-engine school and that was basic. Now we go to advanced, now we are getting real serious.

D.H. How long does this whole process take at this point, were you six months in?

A.C. Training is eight months, two for preflight, two primary, two basic and two advanced, and then two for your combat. Two, four, six, eight almost ten months, right?

D.H. Tell me a little bit about your advanced training, then.

A.C. OK, now I went from Kansas City back to San Antonio where I started from, but a different base.

D.H. OK

A.C. And here was something unusual. They had what they called a AT6 which is the Advanced Trainer 6. That’s what everyone trained in, however I was in the class where I flew the twin engine in basic and now coming into advanced I was the first class, they put us in B25’s which was a twin engine war ship, a B25 they used that in combat. They wanted to see if we could fly them, and my gosh, I passed it, I flew them. The other guys they couldn’t imagine it, here you are flying combat ships in advanced training. Well, I passed and I graduated, 1944, January, I became a second Lieutenant.

D.H. It was January 1944?

A.C. Yeah, now that is a commissioned office and some pilots didn’t make that. They became pilots but they had another rank that they instituted, and they called them flight officers.

D.H. OK

A.C. Now, they did not receive a commission, they received a warrant equivalent to a warrant officer. I don’t know if you are familiar with this or not? So they called them flight officers, so we were briefed that some of you guys aren’t going to be commissioned but you will be pilots.

D.H. But you were commissioned?

A.C. I was one of the lucky ones that got a commission but the others got a warrant, a lot of them, about half of them were warrant officers. So anyway I was blessed I received my commission. Came back to Duluth before going for my final training, came back for what ten, twelve days. My mother she said, “oh, look at all those beautiful clothes you have”. I had officers clothes on, of course, she was used to seeing GI’s around, they didn’t know what an officer was even. My parents weren’t educated, they didn’t know what. And here I am an officer, leave and a year later I am back as an officer.

D.H. That is pretty impressive.

A.C. No one was more surprised than me, anyway. OK, so then I went to get ready for combat. So I was sent to San Angelo, Texas. Oh, we kind of had a choice, we had a choice, not that we were going to get it, but we had a choice, do you want to be a fighter pilot, do you want to be a bombardier pilot, not a bombardier pilot, but a transport, what is the other one, I am trying to think right now. A bomber pilot, a bomber, transport or fighter so you can make the selection but that doesn’t mean you are going to get that. Well, most of us young guys, we wanted to be fighter pilots, you know, you get up and geese that is great. So that was my first, a fighter. What is the second? Transport, I didn’t want to be a bomber pilot. So I was selected for the second choice, transport. Which is great but I was a little disappointed I didn’t get to be a fighter pilot. But I am here today to tell about it and maybe I wouldn’t be otherwise. So, I went to San Angelo, Texas and I got checked out in a C47 and boy I walked up to that and I said how and the heck can you fly that thing, the cockpit is way up in the air there you know? We were used to getting in a smaller airplane and so forth. However the B25 was a little bigger but the C47 had a big tall cockpit. Well anyway, two months of training, I passed it.

D.H. Did you enjoy flying a C47?

A.C. What?

D.H. Did you enjoy flying that type of plane?

A.C. Oh, yes, right, I really enjoyed it. It almost killed me twice but anyway that is another story.

D.H. OK

A.C. Then, we flew to Barefield, Indiana and we got outfitted for overseas, got all of our necessary combat stuff and protection and so forth anything that we needed for when we landed in England.

D.H. OK, how long did that take?

A.C. I think I was in Barefield, I didn’t have to worry about pilot training because we were well versed at piloting we just had to get briefed at what was going on with the war and so forth, what we might be subjected to. I don’t think I was there more than two weeks at the most, and I met my first wife then. Just met her, that is all. I dated a girl there and the two of us we met two girls and I took one home and the other guy took the other one home. The one the other took was eventually my wife. But it ended up like that. So we took off for Europe, landed at Bangor, Maine and picked up a little more equipment. Oh, I know what it was, for over water equipment, right, survival equipment in Bangor, Maine so we were only there a couple of days, and then we flew to Gooseberry, Labrador which is still, Northeast corner of Canada, Labrador is. Gooseberry is an Air Force Base there. Stayed there a about a day only, refueled and so forth and then we took off for Greenland. Over the water and landed in Greenland.

D.H. What did you think of flying over that much water at that point?

A.C. Well, that wasn’t too long of a trip from Labrador to Greenland but still it was flying over the water. Well, the worst part of it was in Greenland, they made an airstrip, cutting out part of the mountain and the seashore only had one runway. One runway, and you had to land, the mountain was right here was the water and they had that landing strip. Of course then they for the airplanes to park and that they had excavated that. So we landed there and we had to make dog gone sure we weren’t over on the runway, well anyway and then taking off we had to take off just the opposite direction. Well we flew across Greenland, all ice there, then across the ocean to Ireland.

D.H. What did you think flying over that big of a body of water?

A.C. Oh yes, but when you are flying you don’t think of things like that you just concentrate on what you are doing and that is it. And of course you think now you are prepared if you have to go down. You know, that is what we have equipment for and so forth. We had a lifeboat and jackets and everything. We had life vests on and so forth that we could inflate in case we did have a water landing. Well anyway we landed in Ireland, a little old place called Nutts Corner but that isn’t important. But then from Ireland, how did we get to my base?

D.H. How long were you in Ireland?

A.C. No, not long, not long just a day or two. I will never forget they had an outside biffie, and outside toilet, you would get in there and they had a hole there and two places where you put your feet here. It’s an outside toilet, anyway things like that you remember. So then they flew us to a base in England, now.

D.H. Were you stationed in England long?

A.C. Now, D-Day had just happened, OK, now I missed the D-Day, I think I got there three days after D-Day but I was in the group that jumped the paratroopers. Of course the guys were all talking about it and everything else a lot of them got shot down, not a lot but some got shot down and didn’t get back so I had to make the trips right after that then and the missions were this. I have a hundred trips across the English Channel, starting from beyond Normandy, as soon as Patton was there, what they did immediately they made landing strips out of fields, for us to come in on. Now what a landing strip is this; they pierced planks about twenty feet long about that wide with holes in it, all steel, and they looped them together, they called that pierced steel, they called it, landing strips. It was just wide enough for the airplane to land and turn around on and it was a cow pasture and they would make a landing strip for us, of course it wouldn’t sink in because there are holes in there and the planks. A couple of them went off they sunk and it took a while to get them out. Anyway, we went all the way across Northern France following Patton, supplying him. What we did, we had to load these ourselves, the pilots.

D.H. The pilots had to load the planes?

A.C. Oh yeah, we would load the airplanes, sure. We had help, but we had to help them. We would line these big 155mm shells and then the GI gas cans. Did you ever see a GI gas can, a Gerry gas can full of gas? We loaded those in the Airplane and then food and supplies. We would take and unload that in across France and then we would pick up the wounded. I saw a lot of blood and a lot of fresh bandages. We would bring the wounded back to England.

D.H. But you helped supply Patton’s third Army, then?

A.C. Absolutely, yes we did, yeah we did, supply the Army.

D.H. How long did you continue to supply Patton’s Army, until you switched off, did you continue with Patton all the way through?

A.C. Yes, OK, you have heard of Bastogne?

D.H. Yes

A.C. All right, Patton was south of Bastogne, I don’t know how far but he wasn’t there yet, when the troops from the Army Corp were surrounded. The German’s surrounded them, in Bastogne. Remember the story about the German General he went to see MacArthur, whatever his name was, and he asked him to surrender, and he said nuts I am not going to surrender, especially at this time. Well they were running out of supplies and they were surrounded; now this is Christmas time. Prior to that, on one of the missions we landed in France and had to stay overnight in Leasia, and I got pretty high on Cognac, matter of fact I got sick and missed a couple missions, drunk sick, and so the Commander said “Cismowski you are going to make four trips into Bastogne.” Oh, God! Anyway the other guys only made one or two trips and I had to make four, four trips over Christmas time, each time from England.

D.H. How long of a flight was that?

A.C. From England?

D.H. To Bastogne?

A.C. I don’t remember exactly, three maybe four hours something like that. I don’t know exactly what it was from England but anyway we could see Patton all the convoys, the trucks and everything going down. But they were south of Bastogne, so what we do we have to come in. Imagine a big circle but this is a couple miles long, all the troops are in there, so we come in at 400 feet, slow, because we had this big field, and we had to drop our supplies right there in that field. In the meantime the German’s had them surrounded.

D.H. Surrounded Patton’s Army or the 101st?

A.C. No, that was a Corp that was in Bastogne, an Army Corp, I am not sure which one it was. But Patton was not there yet he was off to the south and he wasn’t near Bastogne, but we flew over it. We came in at 400 feet and the German’s are shooting at us with rifles and everything else, imagine that. Then we drop our supplies. Then to get out of there they would have to pull up and we would have to fly over them again, of course we were flying over them at maybe about a 1,000 feet or something, still you can shoot rifles so we would fly over them and get the heck out of the area, and get down south where Patton was so we could fly safely back to England. Well, over Christmas time, I made, the day before Christmas, Christmas Day and two other. Four days in a row I had to go I made all those trips and I got shot at each time. Come back with the plane and sometimes we had bullet holes galore in it, but you know, I think we lost a couple of airplanes but I don’t remember. But we went in a lot, maybe two three hundred trips from different organizations in England, see different places and that.

D.H. I imagine before you do one of those missions and maybe even during, I imagine you did a little bit of praying too?

A.C. Not a little bit a whole lot. But I always said I had a good co pilot, all the way, God as my copilot. I always considered that and yes I did a lot of praying over there. I never missed church. I figured if I am going to go, Lord I am ready. I just want you to know I did my duty and that was it and I didn’t want to be here. But I didn’t refuse to be here and which is the case with most military people. So I pulled through Bastogne, now, Patton had conquered quite a bit of northern France. He had already captured Paris. So now we are moving our organization, our whole group to a base in France. It is called Kamalay, which is eight miles out of Paris, maybe eight or ten, out of Paris. Now we are getting to the big push over the Rhine River, which is getting towards the end, over the Rhine River the German’s had it very well fortified so what we did then. We had gliders, we pulled with a C47 two fully loaded gliders and there was something between thirteen and seventeen men in each gliders depending on how much equipment they had.

D.H. I am familiar with what a glider is but describe what a glider is a little, just like what it sounds like.

A.C. A glider is an airplane without engines.

D.H. Just like it sounds, then?

A.C. Right, without engines.

D.H. And you pull it up then?

A.C. We pull it up, we take off and of course it is a terrific drag on the airplane, imagine pulling fully loaded troops. We’d practice, down in Texas I had a lot of practice that was part of our training, you know with gliders. As a matter of fact I learned how to fly glider when even when I was there but it is no big deal. When you started, you would get full throttle in the airplane and then start just barley dragging and then pretty soon when it gets up then the other one takes off then it pulls the airplane back again, you can feel it. You are almost at stalling speed until you get flying, until both of them are flying. Well here we had maybe one or two hundred airplanes with gliders on just all over and we could see way ahead of us, nothing but a cloud of smoke, all dark and we knew that was where the battle was. We were briefed and we had to fly through that and where the helicopters would cut loose we didn’t know. We sure could tell when they cut loose because the airplane just lunged forward, you know, each time one cut loose. Those poor guys they were going down to whatever, crash or kill whatever. Well we had to fly through this dense smoke, and I mean it was dense; it was all from the ground fire down below and so forth. We had to fly a straight course because there was many, many airplanes. You couldn’t return here, you had to fly a straight course until you come out of it and then once you are out of it, then you are on your own you can see other planes and so forth. Well the last trip I didn’t get back to England I was shot up pretty bad and I force landed in Brussels but I, I brought the plane down in Brussels. I had to leave it there and they came and picked me up after and went back to the base in Coulommiers, France.

D.H. Do you know what shot you down, or what type?

A.C. No, I don’t know exactly what it was, but, if I lost power or an oil leak or something. I had to bring the plane down, I couldn’t get back to the base, it just gave out, I couldn’t recall exactly what it was.

D.H. When you landed in Brussels was it a friendly territory?

A.C. Oh yeah, at the time, yeah.

D.H. So what happened when you went down, were you taken care of by the local people?

A.C. Oh yeah, there was no problem there, no problem at all. As a matter of fact I think there was other GI’s around also at the time I don’t recall exactly but there was no problem. I don’t remember how they came to pick us up even, maybe we started drinking cognac?

D.H. Follow me through your journey, what happened after that point, after the Brussels incident? Did you fly again during WWII? I know it is getting close to the end of the war.

A.C. Yes, that is right because I was in, right I was getting close, because once we got over the Rhine and so forth it was going pretty fast for us. Where were we flying? Boy I don’t remember, I made so many trips. I think we were carrying some wounded back to England, yeah, we went to Reims and we made a few trips back and forth carrying the wounded and all of a sudden it was Armistice Day, the war was over.

D.H. Were you pretty excited about that?

A.C. Oh yes, and I went to Paris on VE Day and I tell you, the women they fall all over the GI’s.

D.H. So what did you think of that, being a young guy yourself?

A.C. Oh boy, it was great! So the Arc de Triomphe was just packed with people, just packed with people the Frenchmen were just going wild.

D.H. I imagine it had to be kind of a cool experience to be there at this time? It is a major point in history.

A.C. Yup, it really was something. Incidentally on Easter Sunday I went to mass at Notre Dame Cathedral, which was quite exciting. Notre Dame Cathedral, I had a chance to go to mass there.

D.H. Not a lot of people can say that. On VE day did you and your buddies go out and celebrate that night at all?

A.C. Yes, I believe we did, I probably woke up a few days later, Yeah, a lot of Champaign floating around.

D.H. And how did you like living, I mean you kind of lived in England, cause that is where your base was, correct? How was it living in England?

A.C. Well, it was great, the base. Then I took a trip to London on a pass, which wasn’t too far from my base. I took the train and went to London. I was there one night and the air raid started to sound. I heard one hell of blast and the whole ground spoke. Well there was several of us and we ran for shelter under the archway’s and so forth. The next thing we found out what it was. Less than six blocks from where I was one of the B-2 bombs hit and killed twelve American’s in the building, in the building. So that was the closest I came to being wiped out in that respect. But I was alive at the time.

D.H. I imagine it was quite an experience though.

A.C. Yes, quite shocking, and then find out what happened. We walked over and saw what was left of the building; of course London was pretty well damaged anyway. We say a lot of destruction.

D.H. What did you think of London, when you were there, was it kind of a sad state to see ?
A.C. Well, people were kind of having fun yet. We went to Piccadilly Circus and so forth.

D.H. So we were talking about the Piccadilly Circus and was it a fun place to be as a young guy?

A.C. Yes, and I had a chance to go down in the tube, the subway, saw that. That was where a lot of people stayed during the bombing. They just crowded, cots all over the place, they sleep there. So I saw that. Saw different pieces; saw what was left of London and what was still standing. Saw the bridge that was still standing, and a few other things.

D.H. Did you ever go back to London?

A.C. No, never went back.

Start of Third Disk

D.H. When VE Day took place, what happened after that? Were you still involved with transporting things at all?

A.C. Then we were transporting supplies, primarily. Then I, OK then the war was over so we had a chance to stay on in France or go back to the states. Well, after a year, and I was young, I didn’t want to see any more of Europe and stuff, I wanted to get back home. That was one of the mistakes I made.

D.H. You wish you would have stayed there longer?

A.C. I should have stayed there longer, right. If I would have stayed there longer there would have been an immediate promotion. Not only that then when I came back then.

D.H. What was your rank at this time by the way?

A.C. I was a 1st Lieutenant, I made 1st yeah.

D.H. Sorry, I didn’t mean to interrupt you.

A.C. I started out 2nd as a 1st Lieutenant. So I came back to the states and I flew the southern route. I flew from Paris to, no I went down to Marseille for ten days, on the Cons for vacation.

D.H. Pretty fun?

A.C. Ten days at Monte Carlo, boy that was great, the Cons on the Riviera. It was a R&R they call it.

D.H. Was there pretty nice beaches down there?

A.C. Oh yeah, pretty nice beaches and a lot of pretty things to look at.

D.H. Any stories about that, your time in Monte Carlo you want to talk about.

A.C. One specifically, I met a girl there, we met three of them matter of fact, but there was one I kind of fancied with for a few days and they were special gals for me. Several months later I got a hold of a New York paper and here they had a picture of those girls on the beach, in the New York paper the same ones, the ones I met there, so there must have been a photographer over there at the time. They were pretty classy gals, you know.

D.H. Do you remember their names by chance?

A.C. No, No, I don’t remember their names I didn’t get too well associated but we had a short time together anyway.

D.H. And so after Monte Carlo did you fly back to the states on the southern route then?

A.C. Yes, we went back to Paris, to our base, which is right outside of Paris, OK, I came back to the states so I flew to Marseille and then to Gibraltar, across Gibraltar, flew to Marrakech, Africa, which was on the West Coast of Africa. Then from there flew to Decar, Liberia. And incidentally, I have to mention this; it might be of interest to people. The people of England were like us were real white. When we got to France they were kind of tan. When we got to southern France, down in Marseille on the beach and they were tanner yet. Then we crossed Gibraltar down to Marrakech, Africa, and the people were dark, they were black. Then we got down to Liberia and they were so dark they were almost purple. It is kind of a joke but you can see the difference in the color, right. From Liberia then we flew across to Ascension Island, which is about the middle of the South Atlantic between it and South America and they made a runway out of this mountainous island. Incidentally I had saved up a few dollars in France and so forth and then, they had gambling on Ascension Island and that is where I learned how to lose money. I lost everything gambling, so anyway, I still had my pay coming. Well from Ascension Island we flew across the South Atlantic to Georgetown, which is one of the possessions. There was three the French, the Dutch and the English they all have portions of that country. You are aware of that, right? OK fine, we flew into Georgetown and from Georgetown we flew to Puerto Rico. We landed at Bunkum Field in Puerto Rico. From Puerto Rico to Charleston, South Carolina.

D.H. You guys had quite a bit of flying going from city to city.

A.C. Exactly, well in a C-47 your range is limited and of course flying long distances over water, we had extra fuel tanks in the cargo compartment. Well, that’s where I lost the airplane. I am trying to think where I was mustered out. I think I went back to Bare field and mustered out. Actually I mustered out at Camp McCoy, yeah, right, Camp McCoy that is where I got mustered out then, out of the service. However prior to that time, I am trying to think of where this was, where I took tests. They allowed some officers to take tests of general nature, I don’t remember what they were, to become a regular Air Force to get a regular Air Force Commission. Now are you familiar with the different kind of commissions?

D.H. Some of them.

A.C. Before they were all temporary commissions, all-temporary. The National Guard has a commission, Ok?

D.H. Yes

A.C. The temporary commissions is when you graduate from an Academy, do you know what you get? You get a permanent commission.

D.H. OK

A.C. Now this is something very unusual. I took these various tests and then I had to meet boards of officers, some Generals were on the boards and they fired questions at me right and left. Different questions and so forth, they just tested me. And then I just forgot all about it, OK, forgot about the program. So what happened then, I came to Duluth, and then I received notice that the Air Force is offering any pilots, officers that were mustered out an opportunity to come back on active duty as a Master Sergeant.

D.H. Did you take that opportunity?

A.C. I opted for that.

D.H. OK, it sounds; I bet you got it too, didn’t you?

A.C. Yes, so I now I am a Master, how do I get into this. Now I have to go to, Oh, wait a minute, I came back to Duluth, then before this part I am telling you about Master Sergeant, I went to Indiana and married this girl that I was corresponding with that I met the first time before I went in, just corresponded with her. I went back there and we got married, OK? We got married and oh I was a Master Sergeant, no, no, and then I went to Fort Wayne. How did I get to Fort Wayne, I was a Master Sergeant so, this is quite a story. So, where am I going to be stationed? I don’t know, I wanted to be stationed around Indiana, so I went to Washington on my own, to the Pentagon and I met the personnel people there, some guy and I said you know, now that I am a Master Sergeant and I am going to be stationed some place, I would like to be stationed in Fort Wayne, Indiana. He said, well we have locations and we have to make decisions for these. He said the best I can do for you is put you down in Indianapolis. He said I will put you down in Indianapolis, he said I will assign you to Indianapolis. I said that is good enough. So anyway what I did then, I left there and went to Indianapolis. The place where they said and I said look I am going to be assigned here, I said I would like to be and I would like to be on recruiting duty and I would like to go to Fort Wayne, Indiana. They said, to make a long story short, Yeah, we can assign you there so I got assigned to Fort Wayne, Indiana. I got married and we were living in a house and I bought a house, in Fort Wayne, I was a Master Sergeant and I was working in recruiting duty in the post office. That was the headquarters, the post office. Then I would travel around different small cities, around Fort Wayne, Indiana, on recruiting duty. Then my wife was pregnant and she had a child coming back from across the border of Ohio back to Fort Wayne with her mother and the baby was born in Ohio because she could not make it back to Fort Wayne, anyway the baby was born and a short time after this, a week or so, I got this notice, a telegram from President Truman. You have been selected as a 1st Lieutenant in the regular Air Force, you have ten days, either ten or thirty, I forget, to accept or decline. Wow! You can’t imagine how it felt, what is this. I had completely forgot about all those tests I had taken, way back when. So here it comes, we are living in a house, we have a baby and I showed the wife, look, I have a chance to come back on active duty as a regular officer. Well things were kind of shaky, I knew if I accepted this I would be transferred someplace and if I don’t accept it I will remain here as a Master Sergeant, what’s that? Well after haggling and so forth I accepted. I sent it back. Now Fairfield is right close to Fort Wayne right where we lived, about five miles out, that’s all. I was stationed there before, at the field. So I went out to the base and I met the people out there and so forth. I talked to the Commander and I said, you know, I was just selected as a regular Air Force Officer. He said I heard about the program and you got one of them. You were a Master Sergeant and you got one, Great. Any chance that you can use me here at the base? You know I didn’t know. Yeah, you can be assigned; we have plenty of jobs we can put you on. So what I did, I hightailed, on my own, back to the Pentagon. Now I am going there, I have been selected as an Officer. Yes, well we know, they found my name and everything; we are sending guys different places. I said, I would like to go to Fort Wayne, Indiana because the Commander there would like to accept me. No, we can’t do that. I said gee that is too bad, but what I can do, I can assign you to Major Command that Fort Wayne is under. Major Command, that Fort Wayne is under, you understand?

D.H. Yeah

A.C. OK, I said where is that? Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, I said are you sure you can assign me there? Sure, he said, I have to assign all the people I will just put you on that list, so I said fine. So what do I do, I take off for Harrisburg, Pennsylvania all on my own and I found the guy there that accepts the new people coming in and I told him I am an officer now and I said you’re going to receive a couple officers. He said I know we are we are going to get some. I said, well, I am one of them assigned to this command. He said fine but I don’t know that yet, I said well, I don’t know that for sure either, but I have been told I would be. So I said if it so happens, Fort Wayne was under the air defense command, Fort Wayne was part of it. I said, the Colonel up there, he said that if there was any chance that I could be assigned there he would be glad to have me. The guy looked and said well, he said, we have to assign these people someplace in the major command. He said if it comes through, he took my name and everything, he said, I will go ahead and sign you there if you want. History, I was assigned to Fort Wayne, Indiana. Here we had the house there and everything else. I went from a Master Sergeant, in the post office, back to an officer and on flying status.

D.H. I bet you were just thrilled about that then?

A.C. Fantastic, Fantastic but what job did I have? Well, they gave me several jobs, the ex officer, supply officer, whatever you know, where they need people, see. Well, we had twin-engine beaches there and at that time they allowed pilots to take trips and so forth. As a matter of fact, I took a group out to Kalispell, Montana skiing one time, just R&R you know. Well then I talked to the Commander and I said, I would like to go to Duluth, Minnesota. He said well, I don’t have anyone to go with you. Well it is a twin-engine airplane, side by side. I said well, I’ll fly the damn thing. So I took that twin-engine airplane, beach craft, flew all the way to Duluth. I stopped in Minneapolis, picked up a buddy of mine who was working the BX. He signed a waiver so he could fly in the airplane as long as he worked for the government. Well, my folks came to the airport, where was I. Oh yeah, landed in Duluth, a twin-engine airplane all by myself. I had no copilot, well my buddy he was sitting over there, see. But here, we ran around together here in Duluth and he said, my God are you flying this thing by yourself, well I’m afraid. I said don’t be afraid, I said don’t be afraid I went through the war. Well, anyway that was an experience flying that twin-engine all by myself then I flew it all the way back to Fort Wayne.

D.H. That’s pretty fun though.

A.C. That was something, I’ll never forget that. Where do we go from there? I got to get overseas.

D.H. See right here it looks like you left with the Berlin Airlift, 45,46?

A.C. Oh, the Berlin Airlift I will get to that. That’s coming in when I get into that particular reason. Oh, I came back; I was stationed at Fort Wayne. OK, I don’t know exactly how long, months or something, then I was reassigned to Harman Air Force Base Newfoundland. So I went to Newfoundland, had a young child, my first child, and found quarters up there. Gosh I had some of this written down. I got to get the C54 in here. Oh, I was, then the Berlin Airlift was going on, I was in Fort Wayne. So Then I was called to start training for the Berlin Airlift and I was sent from Fort Wayne to Alliance, Nebraska. There’s the airplane, OK?

D.H. Yup

A.C. And I got checked out and all that, heading for, our destination was the Airlift Berlin. OK, so I took off, I landed again, no Springfield, Massachusetts that was it Springfield, OK prepared the airplane to cross the Atlantic over to England for the Berlin Airlift. I got all set to take off and the airlift quit. I was all set but I can’t actually say I flew in, you know what I mean. However, in training, and that do you know what we had to go through? We would go through all the routes that they had in training, see, blind training and everything, just like as if we were there. Because if we were there we had to know all the different routes and you couldn’t deviate, because the Russians wouldn’t allow it. They cut the roads they cut everything all you had were the air channels so we could fly to Berlin. So I knew all of that I had done all of that and everything else.

D.H. You were all trained and prepped and ready.

A.C. The whole thing, I was all ready, the only thing it quit just before I got there.

D.H. Still, in my book you were pretty much part of it. I mean you were trained to be there. You would have done it.

A.C. The whole thing, I was on my way and went through all the pre flight training so we knew what the airfields were like, we knew what the channel was like and everything. We knew how to get in, how to get out the whole bit.

D.H. Was it a pretty tense moment though? I mean were you pretty curious what the Russians were going to do?

A.C. Well, no, they had made their move prior to that, you know, when they cut our channels, they cut the roads.

D.H. Yeah

A.C. They cut the roads the sea routes and everything. You know what they did to Germany? You know how Germany was divided? How?

D.H. Well you had the city of Berlin itself was divided in half but the city of Berlin was surrounded by the Russians.

A.C. Yeah, but first of all, let’s talk about Germany. How was Germany divided?

D.H. Go ahead.

A.C. OK, Germany divided the Russian zone, the French zone, the English zone and the American zone. OK, that’s Germany. Now we come to the capitol, which was Berlin now what are we going to do with Berlin. They divided Berlin into one, two, three, four sections. I have been over there twice.

D.H. Since then?

A.C. Yeah, not to long ago again. But anyway, so the American zone had Tempelhof Airport.

D.H. OK

A.C. Now, so we were bringing in supplies by truck. The British and the French how they were being supplied we don’t know, but we will concentrate on this now. We were bringing in the supplies by truck. Then the Russians, oh, and by rail, we were bringing by rail also; sorry I forgot that, all supplies for Berlin because Berlin had nothing. They were bombed out they had no food or nothing. So the Americans, we were supplying them. So the Russians cut the rail line, you can’t use the rail then they cut the highway. So how are we going to get supplies to Berlin, only one way, to fly it in? So we made rows of 14,000 trips, something like that. I read about it recently again, by air, we dropped the supplies.

D.H. It is one of the fantastic stories of the U.S. Military History.

A.C. Yup, exactly. So I did my share by training and everything due to what the roads were the whole dog gone thing. So now I am stranded in Springfield. The Commander called and said Cismowski, we have to find a job for you, what would you like to do? I said, well I don’t know I worked in the BX office in Fort Wayne, Indiana for a while when I was there. He said, I tell you what, we have control of Harman Air Force Base and they need somebody up there. How would you like to go to New York City, down to basic exchange headquarters and train for a couple of weeks. In the heart of New York City? I said it sounds good to me. So I am in New York City getting indoctrinated into the higher level of the Base Exchange. Well, OK, from there I went to Newfoundland, to Harman Air Force Base.

D.H. OK

A.C. I brought the family up there after.

D.H. And you still have only one kid at this point?

A.C. One kid, my oldest who is retired and on his way to Kuwait right now, but that is a different story, so, I got to Harman Air Force Base as a BX Officer and all of a sudden I needed a contract officer and the Commander, he called me and said hey Cismowski you got trained in the BX he said, I need a contracting officer. I didn’t know anything about contracting. Well anyway, you’re my contracting officer. So I had to sign for all the contracts and make previsions and so forth back to Sidney, Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island and all that. People would send their request in and I had to approve it and so on and so forth as the contractor. Everything had to have my signature. Well I was there twenty-seven months.

D.H. That is a pretty decent amount of time, though.

A.C. Yeah

D.H. Were you happy with that job?

A.C. Yeah, I shot a moose up there also. That is a different story.

D.H. Yup

A.C. And no one will believe it. Off the record I will tell you later if you want.
Anyway good fishing also. And my wife and I, my first wife, we were a dance couple. We taught dancing, the whole bit, we were in some shows, and so the Commander across from St. John’s he sent a C54 over to pick us up to join one of the shows they were putting on over there. So that was quite an experience but my first wife she is a terrific dancer she taught me a lot. So anyway, besides dancing, so then from there after twenty-seven months we went to Polk field, North Carolina, for a couple of months. From there to Alexander, Louisiana, as a contract officer now, Alexander, Louisiana.

D.H. OK

A.C. I was there a couple of months or so and the wife didn’t like it and her mother wanted her back home so she took off. Then I was transferred to Kokomo, Indiana, which is close to Fort Wayne where she was. Well, things developed and we still didn’t get along to well so we went through a divorce.

D.H. In what year was this in, was this 1946? Oh, I have to go back and get the exact years. I probably have it in my chronological thing. I was in Kokomo for about a year and then here comes the orders to go overseas to Japan. Oh, we didn’t get a divorce yet come to think of it, no. I went to Japan and she refused to come to Japan with the kids, it would have been a great adventure for them. I had two boys at the time then. So anyway I went to Japan for two years.

D.H. What did you think of Japan?

A.C. Oh, it was great, I enjoyed it, I was a contract officer there, and I had Japanese people working for me. I had ten people working in my office.

D.H. And you enjoyed their culture?

A.C. Oh, yes, I learned some Japanese too. (Speaks in Japanese)

D.H. I have no idea what you said.

A.C. No idea, right, Ok it means thank you very much. I made three trips to Hongcong taking R&R troops there. I was the pilot, three times.

D.H. Tell me a little bit about Hong Kong, was it different than Japan?

A.C. Oh yes, quite a bit different, I landed in Taiwan and stayed overnight in Taiwan then we went up to Hong Kong, and of course being a pilot and commander of a ship I could carry as much as I wanted but I had about twenty GIs and they only have so much space to carry contraband back. I had a lot of space so I brought back big, big items, anyway three trips. Went to Korea many times, matter of fact I was supposed to be assigned to Korea but a friend of mine was in command and he said Al he said I am going to get you off that assignment crew, I am going to put you in Japan. How about that? I said Great. So I was stationed at a Kamikaze Base in Queshoo, Japan.

D.H. And you were in Japan for two full years, you said?

A.C. Two years.

D.H. And then what happened after Japan?

A.C. Two years, then I came back to the states and then my assignment was to Syracuse, New York, the Air Defense Command. At that time Duluth was under the Air Defense Command, one of its bases.

D.H. Is that when you were assigned to Duluth, then?

A.C. Now, the guy at headquarters knew me and he knew my home was in Duluth. He called me one day and he said we have a contract officer in Duluth that we are going to have to get rid of him. I won’t mention his name because somebody might have heard of him. Anyway, I guess he got in trouble or something. He said how would you like to go to Duluth? I said how would you like five years in a row here? So from Syracuse I am stationed in Duluth my hometown. Four years as a contract officer and also as a pilot. I flew the C54; matter of fact Amatuzio flew with me a couple of times. You know who he is?

D.H. Yes

A.C. He was stationed up there then. So we flew together, I was the pilot because he was with the National Guard so he couldn’t fly. I was with the regular Air Force. So I was here four years.

D.H. How did you like working back home? Was it fun to be back?

A.C. I had three homes, I had my quarters in the base, I lived with my mother in Kenwood and then I bought the point at Pike Lake, terrific. Jeno Paulucci owns it now; see I was his next door neighbor twenty-six years. Anyway, so I had three places to stay, four years.

D.H. So that is pretty good then. What was your rank at that point?

A.C. I was a Major, yup, I made Major, where did I make Captain? Captain at Kokomo
I think it was and Major in Japan and this is a fact a lot of the people that were mustered out, oh incidentally, from Duluth I served four years and then two years in Tacoma, Washington, at Accord Air Force Base.

D.H. OK, did you like it out there?

A.C. It was great, I came home, I flew home on weekends twice a month for two years because I was building a house in Kenwood so I would come home and work on the thing. Anyway, I had a great time in Tacoma. Then my career came to an end.

D.H. OK, what year was that do you think?

A.C. I have to look it up again. I have a lot of this written down, anyway my career came to an end and I was mustered out. Well, I was mustered out as a Major, now the reason that I didn’t get my final mustering out promotion. All the rest of the guys did, they get what is called a “hip pocket” promotion when they got mustered out, got one jump promoted. Have you ever heard of that?

D.H. I have never heard of it.

A.C. Yeah, you heard of it here for the first time. So they got hip pocket promotions and I did not and the reason I didn’t is this: I was a regular officer, there was not another regular officer on the whole base where I was at. Even here in Duluth there wasn’t any. But I had a regular Commission and I have that today it stays with me for life. I had four serial numbers when I was in the military and the last one is the one I use today 151068 that is my permanent serial number. I had four; I got one as a GI, one as a cadet, one as an officer and one as a regular officer. Four different serial numbers I don’t think too many people have that.

D.H. No, I haven’t heard of that.

A.C. The dates, I would have to go back.

D.H. So during your life how many flights do you think you made? It sounds like you flew quite a bit.

A.C. My record shows 14,000 hours pilot time. That’s

D.H. 14,000?

A.C. Yeah, 14,000. I wonder if it shows on this my check out record? One of my other records shows it. This is my DD214 which is the history of my, I went to two tech schools. One in Texas and one in Ohio training schools after procurement officer, master staff officer, but it doesn’t show my flying time on this particular record here. I do have it on another record though. Ray Kaslowski I had a big write up on him, you know from the Air Base.

D.H. Yeah

A.C. And also in that big write up it showed 6,000 flying hours. I looked at that and said what the hell I have more than twice that. However, when you are flying transport you are flying longer missions, you know what I mean?

D.H. Yeah

A.C. Like me I have all those missions back and forth to Europe and so forth and across and then I flew Japan also that was all flying time. So, most of these guys they fly around two three hours at a time, you know what I mean?

D.H. Yes, but still 14,000 hours is pretty impressive in my book.

A.C. It is a lot; it is a lot of time. So this is Major, got my Major rank in January of 58, I see that here. And I was mustered out in 31st of October 1965. That’s when I retired, 1965. Total time was just short of twenty-three years, mater of fact very short, twenty-three and eleven months, just a few days.

D.H. Well, I think that concludes your service it sounds like, or is that?

A.C. Yeah, and this is when I got my appointment as a Master Sergeant and I told you about that. Most of these came as a surprise to me.

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