Ray Palin
Era: Korea
Military Branch: Army
ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW WITH:
RAY PALIN
INTERVIEWED BY:
Dan Hartman
Program Director Veterans’ Memorial Hall
Transcribed by,
Karin Swor
Program Assistant Veterans Memorial Hall
February 21, 2008
Sections of this story have been removed by the interviewee
DH. Ray if you can say your full name and spell it out.
RP. Raymond Palin
DH. And how do you pronounce that?
RP. Palin
DH. Excuse me for miss pronouncing it. Well, first we will start off with the easy questions. What year were you born?
RP. 1928
DH. What was the date?
RP. December 27th
DH. OK, pretty close to Christmas.
RP. Yup
DH. Where were you born?
RP. Floodwood, Minnesota –Cedar Valley Township.
DH. Did you say Floodwood?
RP. Yes
DH. So pretty close by. Did you grow up in Floodwood?
RP. Yes, on a farm
DH. Were your parents farmers then I would imagine?
RP. Yes
DH. What type of farmers were they, corn farmers?
RP. Dairy farmers
DH. Do you know how big of acreage they had?
RP. 160 acres
DH. That is pretty big
RP. Yeah, but it wasn’t all-tillable.
DH. Did you live in Floodwood most of your life?
RP. Well, I lived there, on a farm, about 15 miles north of Floodwood until I went in the Army in 1951.
DH. 1951, I would imagine you were a Korean era war veteran.
RP. Yes, Yes
DH. Did you remember living through WWII?
RP. Oh Yes
DH. When you grew up, your childhood was during the Great Depression. Do you remember that fairly well?
RP. Yeah, we were poor.
DH. I would imagine, especially as farmers that was a little tough. Growing up during the depression. Did that kind of leave you with certain values that you still hold on to today. Like you don’t waste things.
RP. Yeah, you have to be tight with the buck.
DH. I guess, would you like to give me a little more background on this. Why was it so important to be good with the buck?
RP. Because we didn’t have it.
DH. Growing up on the dairy farm did you have to trade with other farmers to get food supplies? How did you go about doing that? Like did your dad go to a market and sell the milk?
RP. No, a milk truck came and picked up the canisters from the farm.
DH. And they would pay you right there then?
RP. No, every two weeks.
DH. Every two weeks. Could you tell when it came to the end of the two weeks before you got the money? Were you guys pretty short on money until the milk truck came.
RP. No, you had to pinch the pennies.
DH. That makes sense. What were your mother’s and fathers name?
RP. My fathers name was Kusti and my mothers name was Saima.
DH. And what was your mother’s maiden name?
RP. Siermala
DH. What ethnic background were both of your parents?
RP. Finlanders
DH. Did they come right over?
RP. Well my dad came from Finland and my mother’s parents came from Finland and she was born in Cloquet.
DH. Was your dad born in Finland?
RP. Yes
DH. Were you the oldest or the youngest?
RP. Youngest
DH. So you were the first generation to be Minnesota born, correct? Or was your brother born in Finland?
RP. My brothers, no, I had four brothers and four sisters, born in the U.S. and well my mother was born in Cloquet and nine of her siblings were born in Minnesota.
DH. So her parents had been in Minnesota for quite awhile then?
RP. Yeah
DH. But did her parents come from Finland then?
RP. One of them, yes.
DH. What religious background were your parents?
RP. Lutheran
DH. Both of them were the same.
RP. Well yeah
DH. I have interviewed people in the past and their parents weren’t the same. Was religion an important issue?
RP. Not really
DH. You attended Mass regularly?
RP. Well, Lutherans do not have Mass.
DH. You can tell I am Catholic. Did they attend church on Sundays?
RP. Not very often, No.
DH. When I have been interviewing, this is a very common thing.
RP. Yeah
DH. Now, growing up in the area you grew up in, were there a lot of other farmers?
RP. Yes, quite a few, very small farmers. They did a lot of other things, some logging, cutting pulp and things like that.
DH. Was it fun growing up in that environment?
RP. Was it fun?
DH. Yeah
RP. Well, everybody grew up in that environment; we were all in the same boat.
DH. What did you guys do for activities?
RP. There was a hall there that we went and played basketball in and then there was a little river going through our land that we could go swimming in and skating on.
DH. What was the name of the river?
RP. The Floodwood River.
DH. Was the skating on the river a fun activity for you? Or was it dangerous at times?
RP. Oh yeah, it wasn’t dangerous, it froze.
DH. Did you ever play hockey on it?
RP. Well, with just some tree branches, we didn’t have any hockey sticks.
DH. You actually made some sticks out of tree branches?
RP. Yeah
DH. What did you use for a puck?
RP. What ever we could find, sometimes a shoe heel, whatever we could find.
DH. You played a version of it for sure.
RP. Yeah, a little bit, maybe on a Sunday morning or something like that.
DH. Was this with your brothers or with the local kids?
RP. No, with the local kids because my next oldest brother was 15 years older than me.
DH. A little bit like me, my brother is 9 years older than me, so I understand. This Floodwood River was a good source of entertainment for you then?
RP. Yeah, and then downstream we could go fishing.
DH. Was it pretty good fishing?
RP. Yeah
DH. What kind of fish did you catch?
RP. Northern
DH. Pretty good size?
RP. Well, I suppose the biggest one was 3 or 4 pounds,. Something like that.
DH. So that is pretty decent. I grew up on a lake; I am fairly familiar with fishing. What kind of poles did you use to catch fish with?
RP. When I was younger just some black ash thin saplings.
DH. Then did you tie some kind of string around that?
RP. Fishing line and put a Daredevil on it.
DH. So they used Daredevil’s even back in the 1930’s for sure?
RP. Well, not in the early 30’s I didn’t start fishing in the early 30’s, early 40’s.
DH. But fishing was a pretty constant thing you did?
RP. No, when we had the time we would decide to fish.
DH. Were you catching and releasing?
RP. No, catching and eating. In those days you didn’t release, nobody released.
DH. You needed to eat them.
RP. That is why you caught them.
DH. Was there a certain way you liked to eat them?
RP. Fried
DH. Just fried, did you batter them at all?
RP. No, just fry them in butter.
DH. Growing up on a farm could you tell the depression was on? Like when the war happened in the 1940’s did you feel like things got better? Or did they kind of remain the same?
RP. Well, the economy improved because there were jobs available.
DH. So directly you felt the jobs coming into the market, like you saw them coming?
RP. Well, I didn’t get any, I stayed on the farm to farm but there were jobs available.
DH. How long did you stay on the farm, until 1951?
RP. 1951, yeah, I got drafted.
DH. So you were drafted?
RP. Yeah
DH. When you grew up as a teenager in Floodwood, was it kind of a fun place to go?
RP. It was OK. I had to quit school when I was 15 because the last of my brothers were drafted and I had to start farming.
DH. And they were drafted in World War II?
RP. Yeah, I had 4 brothers and they were all drafted.
DH. So every single member of your family served in the military.
RP. Yeah, including 2 brother-in-laws, 3 brother-in-laws.
DH. For the record what were the names of your brothers, oldest to youngest.
RP. Oscar, Walter, William and Earnest.
DH. What were your brother-in-laws names?
RP. Leo Nordlund, Bob Poupore, and Arvo Wiermia.
DH. Growing up as a teenager and watching all your other brothers go off to war, did you follow World War II pretty closely, growing up. Did you listen to the radio?>
RP. Yeah, we had a radio. Then we had the Duluth newspaper. The daily newspaper.
DH. Was there a certain newspaper you preferred? Was it the Duluth Herald or the Duluth News Tribune?
RP. The News Tribune because it came in the mail. That was the morning paper.
DH. So you mainly followed the war through the Duluth News Tribune?
RP. And the radio
DH. And the radio, did you as a family listen to the radio? Like were you and your mom?
RP. Well, Yeah, yeah.
DH. Today FDR’s fireside chats were very popular thing. Did you guys listen to those?
RP. Sometime, yeah.
DH. Do you remember before World War II took place very well?
RP. Just at the beginning, when the German’s went into Poland. I remember September 3, 1939.
DH. Were you thinking we were going to war at that point?
RP. Well, at that age I was not too concerned.
DH. Were your parents concerned about it?
RP. Yes, they had 4 sons that were draft age.
DH. Did any of your brothers think about signing up so they didn’t have the problem of being drafted?
RP. No, they were all drafted.
DH. Did your parents think Roosevelt was a good President?
RP. Yes
DH. Do you want to explain a little more, like why did they like Franklin Roosevelt?
RP. Well, for one thing, most of the people were democrats and he was a pretty fair president, real good. I think he was an honest president.
DH. Do you think his policy of the CCC’s was a good thing?
RP. Well, at that time yes, because of the depression, they needed money. When they were in the CCC’s the boys had to send some money home to their parents each month. Which I think was a good thing.
DH. Did you know anyone that was in the CCC’s, growing up?
RP. Yes
DH. Were they like any brothers of yours?
RP. No
DH. Did all of your brothers stay on the farm until they were drafted?
RP. Yeah, No, one, Bill went out on the West Coast.
DH. What did he do out on the West Coast?
RP. He was in the Army and then he was a logger.
DH. I will watch her too. On Pearl Harbor, December 7, 1941, do you remember that day?
RP. Absolutely
DH. Want to describe your day.
RP. Well, it was a Sunday, and there was a drainage ditch that was about 5 feet wide and about ¼ mile long and this neighbor kid and I were skating.
DH. Did someone come out and tell you about it?
RP. No, when we got home, we heard it on the radio.
DH. Was your family pretty worried at that point?
RP. Well, I really don’t know I was only 12 years old.
DH. You don’t remember, but you do remember that you were skating that day?.
RP. Yes I do.
DH. Is there anything you would like to talk about, growing up during World War II, things that you saw change, that maybe needs to be down for the record
RP. Not really because there wasn’t that much change in Floodwood. The only thing is in 1941 we got electricity on the farm. It was a big deal.
DH. I imagine you were excited about that. Was that a good thing?
RP. Absolutely, that was the greatest thing ever to the farming community, was the electricity.
DH. And you got that in 1941?
RP. I think it was October or November of 1941, just before the 2nd World War.
DH. This was a big deal I imagine?
RP. Yes, a real big deal!
DH. How did this change the farming?
RP. For one thing you weren’t in the dark all the time. You got rid of the kerosene lamps and then you could get. Well, mother had a washing machine with a gasoline motor on it. They put an electric motor on it and then we got all the appliances, toaster, waffle iron and stuff like that.
DH. I imagine this was a really great time for your family, making things a little bit easier around the place. Were there downfalls to it too? Were there things you missed because of it?
RP. No, from the electricity?
DH. Yeah,
RP. Another thing, where it was really good was in the barn, when you have electric lights in the barn.
DH. I can only imagine. I mean looking back was it kind of weird not to have electricity, for a while there?
RP. No, because you were born and raised with not having electricity.
DH. There was nothing you felt became worse because of it coming, though, like where you miss not having the darkness? When you grew up in the 1930’s and 40’s, movie theatres became a big deal. Duluth had four or five of them. Did you guys ever come down to Duluth and watch any movies?
RP. No, there was a movie theatre in Floodwood that we went to once and a while
DH. Any movies that you remember that you really enjoyed as a kid or in your teenage years?
RP. I can’t remember.
DH. Then we will skip to when the war was over. Were people pretty happy to have the Japanese surrender?
RP. Oh yeah.
DH. Do you remember the day it happened?
RP. Yeah
DH. Were people kind of happy, was there a celebration?
RP. No, they didn’t celebrate too much, I don’t think. But they were happy, of course, naturally just about every family had son’s in the service and it was pretty dangerous business.
DH. Do you remember when Germany surrendered?
RP. Yes
DH. What was a bigger day to you, the Germans surrender or the Japanese surrender?
RP. I think the Japanese, because, you know, they were the suicide bombers. They were more dangerous.
DH. Were your brother’s in the Pacific theater or the European?
RP. One was stationed in the Army Air corp in Africa and one was on a floating dry-dock in the Southwest Pacific and two were stateside.
DH. Ok. Were the other two turned back? So, the Japanese surrender was the bigger of the two personally.
RP. I think so, yeah.
DH. I guess we will move forward, after World War II is over the economy is still moving forward for the most part. Do you feel like it was an exciting time in America?
RP. Well, I was only 15 Years old, you didn’t think about that kind of stuff.
DH. So at what age were you drafted in 1951?
RP. I was 22
DH. 22, when the Korean War started did you feel like you were going to get drafted? Was it a worry?
RP. No, I didn’t think I was going to get drafted because I was alone on the farm. I was doing the farming and you needed 16 units to get an exemption. One cow was 1 unit, and 100 chickens was another unit and so on and so forth. So I thought I was safe.
DH. What was the government’s reasoning for sending you.?
RP.
.
DH. That is pretty basic I guess. Were you pretty bummed about it at the time?
RP. I wasn’t too happy. Well, the part that I was unhappy about. This other guy got deferred and I didn’t. The rest of us got drafted.
DH. Was there any type of appeal process?
RP. No, no,
DH. So once you are drafted, you are drafted?
RP. Yeah, but then looking back now I am glad I was drafted because I got off that little farm. There was no future for me in that little farm.
DH. When you were drafted what unit did you get put in right away?
RP. When I got drafted, we were sworn in at Minneapolis, then we took a troop train to Ft. Lewis, Washington. We got processed there and uniforms issued and everything, and took our tests. Part of us were assigned to signal corps. and sent to Camp Gordon, Georgia, and the other half went to Camp Eustis, Virginia. We took our tests, our aptitude tests and I was given a choice of a cook, combat engineer or a radio repairman. I didn’t care for the cooking and I didn’t care for the combat engineer so I made the choice of the radio repairman and I was sent to signal corp. But there I got switched around, and I wound up at. Then I spent a month at Camp Gordon, Georgia.
DH. You are going pretty fast here, I am going to slow you down a little bit. When you became a radio repairman?
RP. I didn’t
DH. You didn’t, but you got sent to do that though?
RP. Yes, but I got sent to the signal corp.
DH. Describe the signal corps. What was the purpose of the signal corps?
RP. To provide communications for the Army, that is radio, Teletype and telephone.
DH. What is Teletype; I don’t actually know what that is?
RP. Teletype is type written messages sent over wire.
DH. OK, was that with a little button?
RP. Like a typewriter and on the other end you had a printer. It printed the message on paper.
DH. They sent you to be a radio repairman and then they decided they didn’t want you to do that then?
RP. They did the deciding, I didn’t. I didn’t decide anything.
DH. So what did they move you into after that? What did they want you to be after that?
RP. Well, the thing, after basic training. Well, we took about 1 month of basic training in Camp Gordon, Georgia and then we went to Camp Cook, California to finish basic training. Then there was some of us that went back to Camp Gordon, Georgia for some telephone repairman installer and some went for pole climbing and pole line construction.
Others went to Camp, Fort something in New Jersey for Teletype.
DH. Did you go with them?
RP. No, I went back to Camp Gordon, Georgia.
DH. Ok, so you stayed in Camp Gordon, Georgia.
RP. No
DH. What did you do at Camp Gordon, Georgia?
RP. Well, first of all, I took 6 weeks of basic training there. Went to camp Cook, California and then went back to training, I think 9 or12 weeks, of telephone repairman school in Camp Gordon, Georgia.
DH. So you spent time training to be a repairman and they didn’t make you do it?
RP. Well, we did that, I will get to it. Anyway after we got done with that schooling we went back to Camp Cook, California. Well then they needed 2-telephone installer repairman at Camp Desert Rock, Nevada. So, this, I talked to this buddy of mine, Ed, that we volunteer to go to Camp Desert Rock, Nevada, which we did. When we were there, they needed 1; there was some other outfit, battalion went too Fort Hood, Texas on maneuvers and when they were there they got a call for one installer repairman to go to Korea. The Lieutenant was a real fair guy so he put all of our names in a hat (there were 8 of us) and pulled one out and mine came out.
DH. So you went to Korea?
RP. No, that saved me.
DH. So one person got to stay and the rest went to Korea?
RP. No, He had said that if we pull him out we are going to have to send a replacement to Camp Desert Rock, so then he pulled out another one and it was that guy they was with me, Ed, his name came out and he pulled out a third one and a guy Paul from Minneapolis, he went to Korea. But there is more to that story if you want to hear it?
DH. I do.
RP. Well, he went there and he was always kind of a shyster, you know.
DH. Paul from Minneapolis?
RP. Yeah, he says boy he was scared. He was on guard duty, at night, you know, in Korea, he would stand behind a tree, if you heard any noises you would fire a couple of shots and then run to another tree. He said boy he was scared. But then one day they needed someone to go into town or a bigger outpost to get some beer, 100 Cases of beer, and he was the only one that had the money.
DH. This was in Korea?
RP. Yeah, it cost 90 cents per case, so he went and got 100 cases of beer in the truck. He came back and the Guard at the gate says, “What do you have in the Truck” He said I have 100 cases of beer. He says well, if you give me 10 cases, I will show you where you can sell the rest at for $12.00 a case. Being the businessman that he was. (By the way he owned part of the land under where Met Stadium was built)
DH. Really
RP. Well anyway he only got $11.00 a case. So he got $11.00 X 90 cases is $990.00 for a $90.00 investment. So then he got in with the black market there. I am not sure if they stole the stuff or if they bought it from the PX but he was in pretty deep. I was at the VA hospital after the war and he came to see me in the hospital. He says, after quite a while, he says to himself, this is going to well we are going to get caught. He quit the gang outright and two weeks later the CIA came in and busted it up. He would have done a lot of time for that
DH. Did he make a pretty decent amount of money until then?
RP. Well, he had a new house built, he bought a Mercedes Bend car new and he bought a new powerboat.
DH. So he did pretty well then?
RP. Yes
DH. And you learned about this because he came to visit you at the VA. He came to visit you one time?
RP. Couple of times.
DH. Were you friends with the guy?
RP. Was I friends? Yes, very good friends.
DH. What was Paul’s last name?
RP. Paul , he was a fun guy. There were three guys out of our eight they were really competitive in our telephone repairman school.
DH Ok, What were you guys competing on?
RP. Pride, that one guy, Tony Wolf, he got the highest mark that has been ever gotten in that telephone repairman school.
DH. Really, still? That is great. He was part of your eight?
RP. Yeah, I heard he went into engineering school. He took classes, not classes, written classes while he was in the Army yet so.
DH. He was a pretty smart guy. Did you ever hear what Tony was doing with the rest of his life?
RP. No, no I didn’t.
DH. We will go back. You didn’t go to Korea so what did you guys do after that?
RP. Well, from November, December, until June, Ed and I were in Nevada, Camp Desert Rock and then we went, the rest of the outfit had moved to San Luis Obispo.
DH. Where is that?
RP. I don’t know, 100 miles away.
DH. So still in Nevada?
RP. Yeah, no in California. Then we went, we were just fooling around, more or less. We were suppose to go to Paris, to provide communications for NATO but we didn’t get through school soon enough, so we were just fooling around there in San Luis Obispo and then we went, our outfit went to Coronado Naval Base for I don’t know a week or two, they had I think maneuvers there and we provided communications, telephone communications for those tanks and whatever.
DH. What was your roll at this point?
RP. Telephone installer.
DH. Still with the same position. OK. You were working with an amphibious unit at this point?
RP. We were on shore. I think it was the Marines or was it the Army but they had those amphibious tanks. They were fun to watch, just a little bit of that tank above the water.
DH. Did you ever get to ride in them?
RP. No
DH. I didn’t imagine but you never know. How were the Marines were they kind of fun to hang out with?
RP. I can’t remember. In fact, you know, we didn’t see much of them; in fact I really can’t, were they Army or were they Marines? We had, for a couple of week’s maybe just three weeks; we had trouble with the Navy. Boy, I never ate that well.
DH. So they Navy had good food?
RP. Yes, and a lot of it.
DH. Give me some example of the food? What kind of food did they have?
RP. Well I can’t.
DH. Can’t remember?
RP. It was food like you.
DH. It was really good then?
RP. Very good, very well prepared.
DH. Where did you go after working with the Navy, where did you go next?
RP. We went back to Camp San Louis Obispo, that was about, I suppose, a little after Thanksgiving in 1952. We just willed away the time. We went back to Camp Desert Rock, Nevada for; most of the battalion went there, but they weren’t having any test there so we just monkeyed around.
DH. What battalion were you with at this point?
RP. We were the 16th signal operations battalion, but the first time I was there for six months, or whatever, we were attached to the 369th amphibious engineer battalion from Fort Warden, Washington.
DH. I imagine you haven’t seen your Atom Bomb type stuff yet, correct?
RP. Huh
DH. We didn’t pass your experience?
RP. Yes, yes, yes, yes. June 1, 1952 when we were in the bomb test.
DH. So we did actually pass it?
RP. Yes, yes
DH. June 1, 1952? How long before did you learn you were going to be part of this?
RP. Well, we actually knew we were going to be part, we just didn’t know when.
DH. OK, when you knew it was going to happen, what type of procedures did you have? Like did they give you masks what did you wear?
RP. Nothing, nothing
DH. Did you watch it? Did you actually see it go off?
RP. Maybe you want to make some copies of these?
DH. We sure do. So you were part of operation Tumble Snapper. What was that?
RP. It was the name of the series of eight tests. They were in alphabet order; I was in test number seven, which was George.
DH. What did being part of the test mean, what was your duty?
RP. Participate
DH. Did they put you in a trench?
RP. Yes
DH. What was your roll, just to watch it?
RP. Yeah, did I give you something, under there? Yeah, that is the main thing.
DH. Do you want to talk about the day that it took place, do you remember it going off?
RP. Yeah, oh yeah
DH. What did they tell you before it went off, did they show you a comparison of one explosion to that explosion?
RP. No, what they did was, it is all in there, about 2:30 in the morning we got up and had breakfast and went into the trucks then. I think it is about 28 miles from Camp Desert Rock to ground zero. Some of these guys are pretty smart and they timed it on the watch. How long it took for, when it went off, the light, to the time the noise got there and they figured it was 28 miles.
DH. So you were 28 miles away from ground zero?
RP. Yes, at that time. But then we went into trenches about 5 feet deep. They were a little less than 4 miles from ground zero.
DH. The first one you did was 28 miles away?
RP. Well, no/ STARTING OF DISC # 2
RP. The ground zero was 28 miles from Camp Desert Rock, Nevada, that was the where we were stationed. That was the Army base. We were a little less than four miles away when we were in the trench.
DH. When were you a participant?
RP. When the bomb went off. The first bomb did not go off. They counted backwards 10, 9, 8, 7,6,5,4,3,2,1 and nothing happened. That was on a 300 ft tower so the guy had to climb the tower to see what went wrong.
DH. What happened?
RP. He obviously found out what went wrong but he lived.
DH. So it didn’t go off again.
RP. Until the next time.
DH. Talk about a scary job. Did you know the guy?
RP. No, no, they were civilian engineers. But the next time they did that and it went off. We were crouched down, with our heads between our knees, like this. Then they said
after how many seconds we could open our eyes and it was still, we didn’t look at the flash or fire bomb or whatever. We just looked down. The bomb went off in back of us and it looked like somebody was arc welding in the trench it was that bright.
DH. Seconds after it went off
RP. I forget how many seconds it was but then they told us we could turn around and take a look. Where it went off it was kind of like a red fire ball then it turned black, it looked like tires burning, have you ever seen tires burning? That is what it was like and then it started forming that mushroom cloud. Like I say in there. It was beautiful sight, you know really. It is hard to imagine that anything that destructive can be that beautiful.
DH. So when you actually saw the cloud you were amazed to see it, it was really cool.
RP. Well then, we were four miles away. You have seen big waves on Lake Superior or the Ocean. It looked like a big wave coming, all the debris and dust and sagebrush and everything. You could see that thing coming and there it went over the trench.
DH. So you guys had already looked at the cloud and the debris hit you after.
RP. I don’t know how long, I don’t know, I suppose maybe a minute or a few minutes. I do not know how long it would take a wave like that.
DH. Was it a powerful wave?
RP. Quite powerful.
DH. Did it blow any of the guys over?
RP. No, no because we were still in the trench. Because we got in the trench and then swisssssss.
DH. But you could definitely tell when it came by?
RP. Oh, could you tell. You go out on Lake Superior and stand on shore and if a big wave comes in the cold weather you can tell.
DH. Was it a hot wave?
RP. No, no dirty
DH. In the desert also. I guess I want to go back to: had you seen the mushroom cloud before this? Like before your experience in the trench had you seen the cloud from base, the mushroom cloud?
RP. I think, yeah, we saw some because I was in number 7, so there were 6 before that. Yeah, we saw them, because some of those smart guys could figure out how long, how many miles away that was.
DH. When you were in the trench and you turned around for the first time, you said it was this beautiful looking thing.
RP. Well, not right away. At first it was like a fireball and then it started turning black, like tires burning, and then it started turning white and actually forming that mushroom cloud.
DH. That is when it looked pretty amazing?
RP. Yes
DH. Was it just huge? Or you are still four miles away.
RP. It was pretty big, it wasn’t say ½ mile or I suppose, I don’t know what it would be, a few hundred feet I suppose.
DH. You know when a big thunderstorm cloud comes in, is that what it looked like?
RP. No
DH. Smaller?
RP. There is no resemblance, no. It is one of a kind.
DH. An experience that you will probably never forget.
RP. Never forget
DH. Were you part of any tests after that?
RP. No, that was the last one.
DH. The other guys in your group, did you talk about it a lot afterwards?
RP. Not really, because Ed and I were the only ones from our company that were there. At that time it just did not seem that big of a deal.
DH. Were these pretty top secret at the time?
RP. Yes, yes you weren’t supposed to talk to anybody.
DH. How long did it take before the Government allowed you to talk about it?
RP. I don’t know that they ever did.
DH. It is funny how often I hear that. What else do you think was a really interesting part of that story that future people, including myself, would be a good thing to hear? You made it sound like you didn’t wear any mask, you didn’t wear any clothing?
RP. Well, all these hear, if you read. I am world famous now. Put that on the bottom, on the bottom.
DH. That’s a good thing isn’t it?
RP. This was from the Finnish Newspaper in Finland, Europe. They didn’t know much about the atomic bombs and this guy was in New York Mills, Minnesota, visiting from Finland, and they came to visit us and they wanted me to write my autobiography or whatever so the guy could bring it back to Finland, I never did but anyway, when I wrote this, this women Susan who lives across the street from me, she was born and raised about 6 miles from where I did and her brother came to visit from Finland and he knew this editor or the owner of that newspaper, so I gave him these pictures and this here and it was in the Finnish Newspaper
DH. Do you have the original of this photo?
RP. I think so, yeah
DH. Are one of these guys you?
RP. No, No, I don’t think so.
DH. So you didn’t take the photo either?
RP. No, I don’t know where I got that from, I don’t really know.
DH. Do you have any photos of you waiting to see the Atom Bomb or anything like that?
RP. No, No
DH. The military probably didn’t let you take pictures.
RP. No, absolutely not.
DH. When you saw the Atom bomb were you part of the signal corps.?
RP. Yes, attached to the 369th.
DH. I bet it is coming up on an hour. We have restarted the interview and we are going back into the Atomic bomb testing. I think we have covered quite a bit of it but I want to make sure I get this right. When they brought you out there to be a participant in the test, they didn’t give you a mask they didn’t give you any gear to cover you with. You just went out in your normal field gear, cotton cloth.
RP. Yes, yes
DH. Didn’t that seem kind of weird to you at the time?
RP. You know, that Government was a real con artist, yeah, they said, well it is not going to hurt you.
DH. Don’t worry about it.
RP. Yeah
DH. Did a lot of people question it?
RP. Nobody questioned it.
DH. It was a different era, a different time, too, so.
RP. Well
DH. Like for me, growing up, it just seems weird but I imagine for you guys you didn’t know about it.
RP. Well, being a naive country bumpkin you believed them.
DH. As I would too. I grew up in the country also.
RP. Where?
DH. Crosby Ironton, so I am from rural Minnesota just as much. You talk about a guy named Ed all the time. Was Ed one of your better friends?
RP. Yes, yeah, we still keep in contact; in fact he came to visit me about five years ago. He had some relatives in St. Paul.
DH. Where does Ed live now?
RP. A little ways from Portland, what is the name of that town, I can’t remember what town it was, Salem.
DH. Out west somewhere.
RP. Yeah, he used to live in Greshum, Oregon but he still lives there.
DH. When you went to do the testing was Ed with you?
RP. Shoulder to shoulder.
DH. What do you mean?
RP. I don’t know, he had a Geiger counter and I didn’t.
DH. Weren’t both of you guys just sitting in a trench?
RP. Yeah, but he had the Geiger counter.
DH. What is that, I don’t even know what that is?<
RP. A device for measuring the radiation.
DH. The counter, when the bomb went off did the radiation show up on there?
RP. Not at that time, but when we walked toward ground zero then we got within about 500 yards and it really started clicking so we had to turn back.
DH. So you guys actually walked towards ground zero after the test?
RP. Yeah, we got within 500 550 yards.
DH. Were you told to do this or was this just something you guys wanted to see?
RP. Well you had too, when they say go, you just go.
DH. Oh, man….What was the point of making you walk towards it?
RP. Well, I guess physical it was a physical test. Something like that.
DH. Were you guys scared to start walking toward it?
RP. No, because they conned us.
DH. But when the radiation thing started going off didn’t you get a little worried?
RP. No, because they told us to go back.
DH. You guys got within about 500 yards, how long would the mushroom cloud last after it had blown up?
RP. I don’t know. It went up and then the wind started carrying it I really don’t remember.
DH. Would it last like two hours or last maybe 10 minutes?
RP. No, I don’t think it lasted two hours because it just dissipates.
DH. So this tremendous view that you had doesn’t last that long? I just cannot believe that they made you walk towards the thing? Did they have set up things to check out on the war there, you know dummies set up, to see what happened to them?
RP. They had, I told you they had they had a 300-foot tower, and then they had some tanks.
DH. The tank itself was still
RP. There were sheep there in pens, I can’t remember, it says on those how far the sheep were, and their fleece was burning, smoldering.
DH. But the sheep were still alive they were just on fire?
RP. Yeah, yeah, see that heat is just a few seconds but it is such tremendous heat. The funny part is they had vehicles there like ¾ ton trucks, or something like that.
DH. But what if things, 500 yards that is still a pretty decent distance from ground zero. You didn’t get close enough to see like a wall blow up or things that close?
RP. What
DH. Did you see any pieces that were actually entirely smashed up, like were there trucks that were smashed up?
RP. No, No, Well, they weren’t smashed up, is all I could say.
DH. That is pretty good that you didn’t get that close.
RP. No, because we were there days before, few weeks before and they had had a test there and they were still intact. One truck was in three pieces, a 2 ½ ton was in three pieces.
DH. I imagine the guys in the camp had to be talking about this all the time, together. Talking about how destructive this thing was.
RP. Not really, they didn’t talk too much.
DH. Once again this is the only test you were part of, correct?
RP. Yeah, that shot George.
DH. And it was called shot George?
RP. Yes, tumbler snapper.
DH. Tumbler snapper was the whole series of tests?
RP. Yes, the eight. Able through I can’t think of all eight of them.
DH. Too me, like I grew up in the nuclear age, and it was a really, really scary thing and when you heard you were going to be part of this test you weren’t worried because the government convinced you it was totally safe.
RP. Yeah, in fact, I am probably alive now, half alive anyway, because we volunteered to go out there because otherwise we went to Korea and who knows what would have happened in Korea.
DH. True, and it is kind of interesting, that you were actually safer watching the nuclear test than going to Korea.
RP. I guess so.
DH. Ok, and at the same time how many people can say they saw a nuclear test?
RP. Not many, I was at Central Sales down on Central Avenue, and one guy says I have experienced just about everything that anybody has experienced and I said I think I have experienced something that you haven’t. He said, what’s that? I watched the Atomic bomb test….Then I have this jacket here with this insignia on there and the clerk there, the next time I went there this guy saw the insignia and he said he couldn’t be too close to the bomb, and this clerk said he hid behind a tree.
DH. You guys were in a trench though, correct?
RP. Oh yeah, there were no trees
DH. Is there anything else on your Atomic experience they you want to talk about?
RP. The only thing is, I have stomach cancer and I got prostrate cancer.
DH. And you are pretty sure that is because of?
RP. Well, the government wouldn’t be giving me 40% disability if it weren’t, but they won’t give me anything for prostrate cancer but I am appealing it now.
DH. Did you talk to the guy downstairs, Rich?
RP. Yeah, I’ve got all the papers down at St. Paul or at the Whipple Building. Boy they have good records, the Army.
DH. Yes they do we are very fortunate.
RP. I think something happened 20 seconds after that explosion; 20 seconds and they had that marked down too.
DH. What happened after 20 seconds?
RP. It is in the paper someplace. Then they got this fellow Shuholm with me there, and they said that Frederick Heisler was with me, but I can’t remember that, he was in Camp Desert Rock. What was that one guys name. I forgot everything.
DH. That kind of, personally I think it is good for the historical record, but I imagine. Do you think that is a good thing?
RP. I think so, yeah. Because if they didn’t have all that record and that and they had that I was in that shot George and that Snapper series well then what proof would I have?
DH. When you were in the trenches with those guys, how many were with you?
RP. Oh, a lot of them, a lot, because I don’t know how long.
DH. Like a few hundred or thousand or 20?
RP. I imagine like a few hundred.
DH. I am about ready to move on past the atomic thing if there is nothing else that you think should be spoke of in your experience with that. I just want to make sure that, you know, you are one of the very few people that we will ever be able to interview that has seen an atomic.
RP. Have you interviewed any before?
DH. Not with this much experiences. We have other guys that have been one of the islands when they did Hiroshima. But no one that was ever within 500 yards.
RP. That was nuclear bomb tests, they were not the atomic bomb tests they were nuclear
DH. I am so glad you came in today; this is just an in creditable story. But if you want I guess we will move back to where we were when you were a telephone repair guy. I guess during this time the Korean war was going on did you guys feel pretty fortunate not to be over there?
RP. Yeah, I think so, but you just didn’t think about those sorts of things. You just didn’t think about those kinds of things. Only one guy from our outfit that went to Korea, well Paul went and this Don Prochell went there. When he got there, he was from by Mankato, when they got there they asked if anybody knew how to type. He said he took typing in high school so he got to be company clerk. So he lucked out.
DH. Yeah, Did you guys follow what was going on in Korea, fairly closely?
RP. Well, I suppose to a certain degree. You know you are young 22-23 years old you do not pay that much attention.
DH. One of the questions I have for you is; growing up in Floodwood did you guys travel much?
RP. No, no
DH. So when you were drafted and went all over the United States, this had to be kind of interesting to see because you were never there before, I imagine.
RP. Yeah, oh yeah
DH. Was it kind of fun to see parts of the country you never been to before?
RP. Yeah, that is what made me decide I am not going to stay on that little farm because you see like out west even and down south, herds of cows, 300-400 cows in a herd and we had a dozen
DH. A little bit less.
RP. Yeah
DH. So that is what made you decide. What was one of your favorite places you visited when you were in the military? What was the first thing you saw that made you think I don’t wasn’t to be on the farm anymore, I enjoy this?
RP. When on the train and going by and saw all those herds.
DH. Really
RP. Yeah, well we spent quite a bit of time in Las Vegas, you know, because we had a bus going from Camp Desert Rock, which is about 90 miles away. You know a few buses, like; they were probably pretty close to the size of a Greyhound Bus, not that high and not that tall, but about that long.
DH. When you went to Las Vegas was this kind of like an R&R, was this a fun time for you guys?
RP. Well, you had a pass every night, a pass to go every night.
DH. Was it a fun place to go to?
RP. Oh sure, it was something else to do besides to look at. We lived in tents, they had wooded floor and walls wooded walls, you know, and they had wooded walls studs about up this high up and then cross beams about this high and the rest was tent. They had oil stoves, no not oil stoves, they had gasoline stoves.
DH. Lets talk about your Las Vegas experiences when you guys went as a group, did you guys gamble, did you guys go drinking, what did you do for fun?
RP. Well, we didn’t have too much money to spend. I remember I put $17.00 in the nickel slot machines once and did not get a jackpot.
DH. $17.00 that is quite a bit of money back then.
RP. It was quite a bit of money back then. Yeah, a lot.
DH. Were you quite a bit bummed at yourself, after that? Were you a little bummed that you didn’t win anything?
RP. No, but it taught me a lesson.
DH. Not to gamble?
RP. Not to gamble, yeah.
DH. So when you went to Vegas what did you normally do then?
RP. Well, we, just monkeyed around. There were some shows there that we saw. We saw the Marx Brothers there once and some lesser quality shows. Then there were some USO shows that came to Camp Desert Rock, Nevada too.
DH. Any ones in particular that you remember?
RP. No, No
DH. You never had like Marilyn Monroe come or anything like that?
RP. No, No, One thing was the one sergeant, he was stationed down in Okinawa or one of those islands and he says Bob Hope came there, and all the officers had front row seats and Bob says everybody leave this auditorium and come back in again because I do not have any reserve seats for my shows.
DH. That is a pretty cool thing to hear.
RP. He said there were full Colonels sitting next to privates.
DH. That’s good, and it is good for moral too. So I will try to truly go back to your repair days. Last time we talked about this, I think you guys were in California working with the Marines, where did you go from there?
RP. We went back to our base, in Camp San Luis Obispo.
DH. Any idea how to spell that?
RP. San is San, Louise, Luis, Obispo, well you can look that.
DH. I am just trying to get an idea so I can find it on line. Ok. And so what did you guys do on base?
RP. Well, a lot of times if there was nothing to do, first of all, for awhile we went to school, they had, well I only had an 8th grade education so they sent me to school, but I was home on leave, home on furlough, when they started it so it didn’t do me any good because I was stuck in the middle of those classes.
DH. When you went on leave to go back home, was it kind of, were your parents pretty happy to see you, I imagine?
RP. Yeah, yeah
DH. Did you enjoy going back home?
RP. Oh, yeah, but I have got to tell you this story. Here about 10 years ago I was getting headaches, they were 24 hours a day, seven days a week. I knew that it was caused by my teeth, every time I had a tooth pulled or fixed it would go away for awhile and I wanted all my teeth pulled but no Dentist would pull it. They said teeth don’t cause headaches. That one Doctor in West Duluth, that Jimmy Johnson, I think. The Gentle Dentist. He says maybe you have a tumor in your head you should go see a neurologist, so I told my doctor at the VA clinic in Superior and he made an appointment with me at the Vets hospital. So I went there and I had an interview with a nurse practitioner, if you don’t know what that is. So then she said that you had a cat scan on your head recently? I says yeah, what did it show? I said well the doctor said it looks like your brain is normal and then for a joke I says. The doctor says it looks like it is brand new and I said it should be, it has never been used, and she said because of your education. She figured because I only had a eighth grade education I never used my brain.
DH. She really said that?
RP. She said it, serious!
DH. How did you respond to it?
RP. I’m dumbfounded.
DH. She was joking too?
RP. She was serious, yes.
DH. That is awful.
RP. But, people can’t believe that.
DH. They can’t take a joke.
RP. But I use that a lot. A little over a month ago I fell in front of my house, it was ice, and I hit my head. I have a lump on my head. The 30th of January I went to the Vets clinic for my vitamin B12 shot and I told the doctor that. He sent me to the St. Mary’s hospital site for a cat scan on my head. So then I tell people that the doctor said my brain looks like it is brand new. I said it should be it has never been used. You know people believe that kind of stuff.
DH. They shouldn’t, to me it is obviously a joke. That is just weird. Lets go back to you were at Camp San Luis Obispo, I still can’t pronounce it.
RP. San Luis Obispo it is spelled just like OBISPO
DH. So where did you move after that? What did they have you doing after that?
RP. In the beginning of February, or so, of 53 we went back to Camp Desert Rock, Nevada for four weeks, or six weeks. We did nothing there really and then we went back to Camp San Luis Obispo and got discharged.
DH. So you were discharged in 1953?
RP. Yeah, the 14th of March.
DH. So what did you do when you got discharged, go back to Duluth?
RP. I went back to the farm and stayed on the farm for that summer and then in September I came here and went to electrical school for two years.
DH. Where did you go to school at?
RP. Saulter School but there was no apprenticeships open so then I went back on the farm for a little, then I worked roofing for that one summer then I went to work at the steel plant.
DH. Which one, the U.S. Steel plant?
RP. Yeah
DH. When you worked at the steel plant did you live here in Duluth?
RP. Yes
DH. Where did you live at?
RP. When I was single, 1 West 5th street for a while, then I got married and we lived at 330 South 16th Avenue East and now for 49 years we have lived at.
DH. When did you meet your wife?
RP. In 1956
DH. Ok, so only a couple years after you got back, after you were discharged. Did you meet her in Duluth?
RP. Her sister was living next door to my sister so.
DH. So how was it working at the Duluth Steel Plant, was it ok, was it a pretty decent job?
RP. It was a pretty good job but it was different shifts and different days of the week off and sometimes you would work three nights and have a couple days off and then work a couple of days and things like that which I didn’t like. I had 19 and ½ years in for pension rights. That was September of 73 when it closed down. I was kind of glad it closed; I was getting tired of that night shift and stuff.
DH. You worked there for 19 ½ years?
RP. I actually worked for 17 ½ and then more rights for pension and that.
DH. You were kind of tired of working there, did you go anywhere after that?
RP. I worked roofing for a few years, flat roofing, hot roofing.
DH. I will go back a little bit, back to 1953. Were you happy to be out of the Military?
RP. Oh yeah, you know when I was farming, I was doing the farming and was making the decision which cows to sell and which calves to keep, it is pretty hard to go in the service when some of these 18 year old Corporals are ordering you around. That is hard for somebody as independent as me.
DH. When you left the farm you were pretty much running the farm?
RP. Yes, yeah
DH. So what happened when you left, I mean who took care of the farm then?
RP. My brother was living in Duluth and he came back and did the farming.
DH. It sounds like you were happy to be off the farm, eventually?
RP. Yeah, oh yeah
DH. Ok….are you happy you grew up in Duluth?
DH. We are coming back now and we are starting in the late 1950’s mid 50’s in Duluth. What did it feel like in Duluth, I mean. You grew up in the depression era and when you came back I imagine Duluth was starting to grow a little more.
RP. State wide it was starting to go a little down hill. It was pretty stable in population at that time but it has gone down. It was about 105,000 at one time and what is it now 86,000 now?
DH. Yep
RP. That is what happened.
DH. I mean did you feel like there were more jobs when you came back to Duluth or did it stay the same? Or did you feel like it was kind of the same?
RP. I don’t know if there were more jobs in Duluth but I got a job anyway.
DH. So there was at least one more job. Is there something else in your military experience that you want to have on the record, something that I might have passed over that, I feel like we went through it pretty good.
RP. I don’t think there is much we haven’t covered.
DH. I want to thank you so much for coming down here today. Get the official handshake again. I think this is going to be a fantastic story to have.
